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A remaster with no old code: Crash Bandicoot was rebuilt nearly from scratch

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Re: A remaster with no old code: Crash Bandicoot was rebuilt nearly from scratch

#71
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'll say up front, you're right to say I don't have 15 years of experience to back this up. And if your takeaway is, "this idiot doesn't know what they're talking about", fine, I'll take that. That's a completely reasonable reaction. But, you're wrong. The top rated post on Hackernews right now is a bunch of people gushing about how cool it is to see the source code for the Apple II LOGO language[0]. Your code has…

I read all that and still think, "you don't what you're talking about". This is 100% a problem of dependency management, i.e. a problem common to software everywhere at all times that has never gone away. Whether more work survives is ultimately a factor of whether it's whether it's easy to make it survive, not on the "blame them for lacking effort" angle. Some folks will take the extra time, some won't. The software…

I am not sure where we disagree.

Everything you're talking about is a legitimate problem. I agree with you completely. However, source access helps with the majority of it -- even with making better emulators.

But even disregarding source code entirely, the game industry is also not particularly great at preserving final releases. If you're a big, popular title, sure, that'll probably be available. If you're a smaller title, or you saw a limited regional release, or you're a demo for an unreleased game, it's not a given in our industry that you actually do end up in vault somewhere. And that's the first step -- you can't run a game in an emulator unless you have the game to run.

The easiest question is, "do Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo have an official archive where they preserve the release binaries of every single game that is released on any of their platforms?" The second easiest question is, "how about source code?" And then after that things start to get complicated and all of the concerns you're talking about come into focus.

In the film industry, there are cross-studio efforts to make sure that raw footage isn't lost. That's the result of prominent directors and studios taking the industry to task for many years, often after they had been personally bitten by film degradation. Nothing like that exists in the games industry. On the contrary, if you read over the comments on this article, you'll find multiple instances of devs arguing that preserving history is less important than shipping the next title, a kind of weird throwback to the same philosophy that led to old film studios destroying film reels from unsuccessful movies so they could be reused on the next project.

Of course, that's not a problem with Crash. It is, luckily, famous, so lots of copies exist. But apparently very few of the raw assets do. And it seems to me that if Sony can't even solve that problem, when Sony seems to have a clear financial incentive to solve it, they're not really in much of a position to start tackling MMO community preservation yet.

Re: A remaster with no old code: Crash Bandicoot was rebuilt nearly from scratch

#72
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'll say up front, you're right to say I don't have 15 years of experience to back this up. And if your takeaway is, "this idiot doesn't know what they're talking about", fine, I'll take that. That's a completely reasonable reaction. But, you're wrong. The top rated post on Hackernews right now is a bunch of people gushing about how cool it is to see the source code for the Apple II LOGO language[0]. Your code has…

> So I'll say up front, you're right to say I don't have 15 years of experience to back this up. And if your takeaway is, "this idiot doesn't know what they're talking about", fine, I'll take that. That's a completely reasonable reaction. My takeaway is that you did not even read what I wrote: a) I said I quit the circus 15 years ago. I did not claim 15 years of game dev experience. > If your takeaway is, "I don't ca…

> You are missing the point: Just because you would like to have an introduction into resource-conscious development based on the games you enjoyed as a kid, this is neither the easiest nor an in any way appropriate way to study the topic. Go, read and understand some programs written in the late 60s and early 70s and you'll be 80% there.

The point of preserving history is not to get good at making modern games. This is like claiming that we don't need any silent films because any modern film techniques class will already teach you how to do a long shot or a dutch angle anyway. Hence my original statement: If your takeaway is, "I don't care about old games unless they make my new PS4 game run faster" you have missed the point. We're not preserving history because we're worried we'll forget how to build games.

> d) That's called IP theft.

Of course IP owners and publishers are allowed to send code to the Internet Archive. It doesn't have to be (nor should it be) an individual dev stealing from the company; I'm not sure where you would get that idea. What I meant was that if Sony and Naughty Dog as companies don't have the resources to keep content around on their servers, there are 3rd party nonprofits that will happily do it for them for free.

This is not a new idea, the UK has gone so far as to mandate that every published book needs to be submitted to a national vault for preservation[0]. The US tends to avoid legislative solutions like this, but I know digital archivists who would like to see laws like this passed for games.

[0]: https://www.bl.uk/legal-deposit

Re: A remaster with no old code: Crash Bandicoot was rebuilt nearly from scratch

#73
post #53

They rebuilt a game in Unreal 4. So yeah from the ps1 era almost everything had to be redone from scratch. I fail to see the problem here. Did player expected them to package the optimized lisp virtual machine they had back then in UE4?

> Did player expected them to package the optimized lisp virtual machine they had back then

Well, yeah? It's a remaster, not a remake. A remaster implies taking an existing project and updating it. And it makes sense to keep the old game logic - why write from scratch if you already have the whole game in a working state?

Re: A remaster with no old code: Crash Bandicoot was rebuilt nearly from scratch

#74
post #61

Funny story about Crash: Everybody around 30 years old in Slovakia knows Crash Bandicoot. In late 90s - early 00s there was a very popular TV show where you could call in and play the game with your phone (basically just left/right/jump) I spent hours watching it https://youtu.be/v3RYappcWZg

There was a similar show, called "Hugo" in Germany in the same timeframe...

Even with accompanying video games - ah, the memories...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_(game_show)

Re: A remaster with no old code: Crash Bandicoot was rebuilt nearly from scratch

#75
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sort of second problem I have with this is the idea that flops aren't worth archiving. So many game companies go out of business after a flopped game (hell, even seemingly successful companies like Telltale Games are going out of business) that I doubt anyone has the energy to care about archival in this instance. > Of course caring about archival makes developing games harder, just like caring about accessibil…

Besides, there are often no entities who can legally keep archives of the work done at a studio when it is closed down. Publishers should institute a rule for their own sake that says that the deliverable must not only be the full game but also all source files in editable format, including proprietary tools as well as an image of a build server capable of producing a running product when follwing a documented sequen…

That’s a very good point. Yes, it would be incredible if publishers would take archival on and have code + source assets as part of the deliverables.

Re: A remaster with no old code: Crash Bandicoot was rebuilt nearly from scratch

#76
post #61

Funny story about Crash: Everybody around 30 years old in Slovakia knows Crash Bandicoot. In late 90s - early 00s there was a very popular TV show where you could call in and play the game with your phone (basically just left/right/jump) I spent hours watching it https://youtu.be/v3RYappcWZg

That is so awesome! Thanks for making my day. :)

Re: A remaster with no old code: Crash Bandicoot was rebuilt nearly from scratch

#77
post #53

They rebuilt a game in Unreal 4. So yeah from the ps1 era almost everything had to be redone from scratch. I fail to see the problem here. Did player expected them to package the optimized lisp virtual machine they had back then in UE4?

> Did player expected them to package the optimized lisp virtual machine they had back then Well, yeah? It's a remaster, not a remake. A remaster implies taking an existing project and updating it. And it makes sense to keep the old game logic - why write from scratch if you already have the whole game in a working state?

It's a remake, not a remaster in the definition that you are thinking of. Vicarious Visions did not use any of the code, likely to the fact that either it was unusable or they did not ever have the source code.

N. Sane was done in Alchemy Engine, not Unreal Engine 4 (unlike Reignited), although VV is likely following suit with their upcoming project.

Re: A remaster with no old code: Crash Bandicoot was rebuilt nearly from scratch

#78
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides, there are often no entities who can legally keep archives of the work done at a studio when it is closed down. Publishers should institute a rule for their own sake that says that the deliverable must not only be the full game but also all source files in editable format, including proprietary tools as well as an image of a build server capable of producing a running product when follwing a documented sequen…

That’s a very good point. Yes, it would be incredible if publishers would take archival on and have code + source assets as part of the deliverables.

With remasters of old titles now being economically viable, the necessary incentives for publishers are becoming real.

Re: A remaster with no old code: Crash Bandicoot was rebuilt nearly from scratch

#79
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read all that and still think, "you don't what you're talking about". This is 100% a problem of dependency management, i.e. a problem common to software everywhere at all times that has never gone away. Whether more work survives is ultimately a factor of whether it's whether it's easy to make it survive, not on the "blame them for lacking effort" angle. Some folks will take the extra time, some won't. The software…

I am not sure where we disagree. Everything you're talking about is a legitimate problem. I agree with you completely. However, source access helps with the majority of it -- even with making better emulators. But even disregarding source code entirely, the game industry is also not particularly great at preserving final releases. If you're a big, popular title, sure, that'll probably be available. If you're a smalle…

> And it seems to me that if Sony can't even solve that problem, when Sony seems to have a clear financial incentive to solve it, they're not really in much of a position to start tackling MMO community preservation yet.

There's a problem with that argument, though. Sony et al have an incentive _now_ to want the content for older games. But it wasn't until much later that the idea of rereleasing games, much less archiving bits of them for future use, was a common thought.

I'm not arguing that the industry has gotten particularly better at that in the interim, just that there wasn't an incentive for it historically, and concluding that they can't do it when incentivized to doso doesn't follow.

Re: A remaster with no old code: Crash Bandicoot was rebuilt nearly from scratch

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure where we disagree. Everything you're talking about is a legitimate problem. I agree with you completely. However, source access helps with the majority of it -- even with making better emulators. But even disregarding source code entirely, the game industry is also not particularly great at preserving final releases. If you're a big, popular title, sure, that'll probably be available. If you're a smalle…

> And it seems to me that if Sony can't even solve that problem, when Sony seems to have a clear financial incentive to solve it, they're not really in much of a position to start tackling MMO community preservation yet. There's a problem with that argument, though. Sony et al have an incentive _now_ to want the content for older games. But it wasn't until much later that the idea of rereleasing games, much less arch…

That is a very good point.
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