Tesla’s Model 3 Is Becoming One of America’s Best-Selling Sedans • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla’s Model 3 Is Becoming One of America’s Best-Selling Sedans

#261

Post by jbob2000 » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:20 PM UTC

dmckeon wrote: post #236

jbob2000 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually really like my 2016 C-class. It has a “hold” feature where, if you are at a stop light, you can give the brake pedal an extra push to “hold” the brakes and you can then take your foot off the brake pedal to rest, while the car keeps the brakes on. Then, when you start to accelerate, it automatically releases the brake and you go, just as if you swapped from the brake pedal to accelerator. You can also do t…

> t also has this eco game thing, where you earn “points” when you drive efficiently, and it penalizes you for driving inefficiently (hard acceleration, braking instead of coasting, inconsistent speed). This “game” has transformed the way I drive, it should be in every car. If it also earns a driver "points" for not impeding other traffic while driving efficiently, and penalizes a driver for blocking other vehicles t…

I don’t care about the assholes who tailgate. I watch them tailgate me and also the sports cars racing up on the passing lane. Rushers are going to rush, let them get frustrated and do their thing. I am relaxed, safe, and happy.

Re: Tesla’s Model 3 Is Becoming One of America’s Best-Selling Sedans

#262

Post by r00fus » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #230

r00fus wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The I-Pace is just starting sales. The EQC is not yet released. You can barely reserve the iX3. How are these even in the same ballpark as the Model S which has been out for 6 years and the Model 3 which has been selling in decent volume for months? We have very little data about how production models of these vehicles drive/maintenance/etc. It will be nice to see some competition to Telsa's Model X but none of them…

You can barely reserve a Tesla and the long term quality/maintenance of the Tesla 3 isn't known either. And if you want to compare with the Model 3 then obviously we have the hybrids (Prius, Camry) and the electrics (Leaf, Bolt). The point is that the idea that the established car manufacturers can't make a decent electric car is ridiculous. They can. In fact they look significantly better than a Tesla.

Many of my coworkers and friends have Model3s and they got them in weeks. Neither of the three you mention will receive shipments in 2018 if you order today.

Clearly they can make a car "better" than the Tesla (if you're leaving alone drivetrain), but they generally cost more.

That's the rub. Due to battery costs, any manufacturer not having a lock on battery supplies will either have to produce a vehicle that's weak on range/power or will cost more for the same range/power as a Tesla.

That's why plugin hybrids are all that the big manufacturers offer that honestly compete with Tesla's offerings. You need 1/5th the battery for a hybrid as you would a full EV.

Re: Tesla’s Model 3 Is Becoming One of America’s Best-Selling Sedans

#263

Post by kllrnohj » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

illumin8 wrote: post #188

kllrnohj wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both Audi & Jaguar are looking on track to, on their first attempts, quite soundly beat Tesla at the electric SUV game. Similar price, similar range, and vastly better quality. And really if you think about it that shouldn't be surprising. The big car companies today don't need a miracle at all. They are in a pretty good spot. They know how to do all the really hard stuff about building a car (the actual manufacturin…

Sorry, I hate to break it to you, but Audi's E-tron is basically being used as an example of how far behind Tesla the rest of the industry is when it comes to efficiency and battery technology: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/18/ubs-says-audis-disappointing...

$75k etron, est range 249 miles ( https://www.caranddriver.com/news/2019-audi-e-tron-quattro-e... )

$80k model x, est range 237 miles.

Tesla may have better battery tech at the end of the day, but it's very obviously not so far ahead. We're talking 10-20% differences at comparable price points even if Audi comes in under estimates.

And critically it's highly likely the Audi will have the build & interior quality of an $80k car, unlike the model x. Time will tell if people will ignore luxury to get a better 0-60 or not. Some certainly will, but most historically don't.

Re: Tesla’s Model 3 Is Becoming One of America’s Best-Selling Sedans

#264

Post by kllrnohj » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

mjamesaustin wrote: post #195

kllrnohj wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both Audi & Jaguar are looking on track to, on their first attempts, quite soundly beat Tesla at the electric SUV game. Similar price, similar range, and vastly better quality. And really if you think about it that shouldn't be surprising. The big car companies today don't need a miracle at all. They are in a pretty good spot. They know how to do all the really hard stuff about building a car (the actual manufacturin…

To say Audi & Jaguar are on track to soundly beat Tesla is pretty presumptuous. Tesla has a cost and experience advantage on batteries and electric powertrains. It becomes clear when you compare the stats of these competitors and realize they require 90kwh and 95kwh batteries to achieve the same range as a 75 kwh Model X. That's not to mention the elephant in the room, which is fast charging. Tesla's supercharger net…

Yes, but it's very critical to remember that Tesla only has that electric powertrain. The rest of the car is pretty much a joke. The build quality of the $100k P100D Model S is worse than what you'd find on a $20k Civic. The interior is poor. Words like "minimalist" are often used to try and make it sound nicer than it is - it's cheap, low quality, and missing loads of features for its price bracket. General quality control is poor.

The Model S has a currently unique powertrain, but that's basically the only thing it has. Do you really think that can continue to be sufficient to move vehicles when competitors have a powertrain that's 80% the same as Tesla's, but an interior & build quality that's 10x Tesla's?

Re: Tesla’s Model 3 Is Becoming One of America’s Best-Selling Sedans

#265

Post by rspeele » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 6:05 PM UTC

King-Aaron wrote: post #169

FireBeyond wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, exactly - but yet to listen to the grandparent comment, "that's hardly much money to spend on a car these days".

To highlight where I'm coming from, $37k USD is around $52K AUD, which then if you consider onroad and dealership costs, lands you in the ballpark of $60k AUD. Which is what you spend on a Kia Stinger, which while isn't an entry-level car, certainly isn't a Euro. https://www.carsales.com.au/demo/details/Kia-Stinger-2017/OA...

So $60K USD isn't an expensive car, because an average-priced $37K USD car is nearly $60K in AUD? ...what?

Also, even the average new car price being $37K USD seems high to me, given the preponderance of sub-$20K cars I actually see on the road (Civics and Corollas). I could certainly be out of touch in the opposite direction, but I wonder if that's a mean or median average, and whether it includes vehicles that are typically more expensive like SUVs, minivans, and pickup trucks.

Re: Tesla’s Model 3 Is Becoming One of America’s Best-Selling Sedans

#266

Post by Fins » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

Latteland wrote: post #232

Fins wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not aq big fan of Toyota's design, but is their UX seriously worse than "oh, let's control AC system from a touchscreen" nonsense from Tesla?

Yes, I think Toyota is bad. The S is maybe a little bit better than the 3, but they'll improve the 3. On the S the AC controls are always at the bottom of the screen, touch it at any time and they show up. The tesla isn't perfect, but it's so much more advanced than the competitors. Tesla needs competition so they can get better. Today's model S is the same as the first one I bought in 2012, except for a bit better b…

Good thing I don't plan to get a Toyota, then. And at one point they were known for good ergonomics.

On the other hand, in my 2011 car (and it wasn't exactly anything new at the time either), adjusting AC does not require looking down at the screen, let alone hunting for a flat and featureless part of a touchscreen, that can move with the next software update.

Tesla is a great idea. But IMHO the execution is nowhere near what the price would suggest, and it is advanced in a very SV way, the way Juicero was advanced -- by adding extra tech and complexity to things that have been solved for longer than anyone at Tesla has been alive, and only add to the price with no improvement in UX (or, as with these, with an actual degradation in UX).

Re: Tesla’s Model 3 Is Becoming One of America’s Best-Selling Sedans

#267

Post by acconrad » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 7:09 PM UTC

freerobby wrote: post #172

acconrad wrote: post #95

I cannot for the life of me rationalize spending so much on a car. The $35,000 just doesn't make sense in New England, so I need to add in AWD. Then I need to add in the autopilot because isn't that the point of owning a Tesla so you don't have to drive your car someday? Now, with government incentives , this car is $50k. Couldn't you grab a Rav4 Hybrid with Comma AI and basically have an electric car with AWD for $3…

> I cannot for the life of me rationalize spending so much on a car. The $35,000 just doesn't make sense in New England, so I need to add in AWD. Then I need to add in the autopilot because isn't that the point of owning a Tesla so you don't have to drive your car someday? Now, with government incentives, this car is $50k. Nah, that's only if you're throwing in LR and a Premium Interior. $35k + $6k for AWD + $5k for…

Where are you seeing that? I'm designing the Model 3 right now and with AWD and autopilot it comes to $63k before incentives and $53k after... https://3.tesla.com/model3/design#autopilot

Re: Tesla’s Model 3 Is Becoming One of America’s Best-Selling Sedans

#268

Post by freerobby » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

acconrad wrote: post #267

freerobby wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot for the life of me rationalize spending so much on a car. The $35,000 just doesn't make sense in New England, so I need to add in AWD. Then I need to add in the autopilot because isn't that the point of owning a Tesla so you don't have to drive your car someday? Now, with government incentives, this car is $50k. Nah, that's only if you're throwing in LR and a Premium Interior. $35k + $6k for AWD + $5k for…

Where are you seeing that? I'm designing the Model 3 right now and with AWD and autopilot it comes to $63k before incentives and $53k after... https://3.tesla.com/model3/design#autopilot

OP is referencing the $35k/standard range model, which is expected to ship in 3-6 months. I can't figure out a way to direct link you, but look in the top right of the page at https://3.tesla.com/model3/design/ RN# HERE>#battery

Re: Tesla’s Model 3 Is Becoming One of America’s Best-Selling Sedans

#269

Post by romed » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 9:29 PM UTC

kllrnohj wrote: post #145

Obi_Juan_Kenobi wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds pretty good to me. It's not spot on, but maybe up to 5 years off? For being predicted 20 years ago, it's basically correct. The majority of new vehicles being fully electric will happen pretty soon. The economics of this happening are incredibly compelling, essentially inevitable. I would put this occurring before 2025, but it's hard to say. If the Chinese keep up the heavy push toward electrification, it will…

> The majority of new vehicles being fully electric will happen pretty soon. No? Not even remotely close to true. The Model 3 broke into the best selling sedan list. That's great, but it's not even in the same ballpark as an EV taking the top vehicle sales spot much less EVs being the majority of new vehicles. Just to return to reality here there are more F150s sold in 6 months than Tesla has sold in its lifetime (45…

Right, it's amazing how blind people can be to reality. In Berkeley, the crunchiest of all possible american cities, the electric vehicle fleet is only 2% of cars on the road, and much less than 2% of all the vehicle-miles. Cars last for 20 years and in the last decade the median age of cars on the road has dramatically increased. For half the fleet to turn over you'd basically need for electrics to have 100% market share for many years.

Re: Tesla’s Model 3 Is Becoming One of America’s Best-Selling Sedans

#270

Post by dang » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 11:11 PM UTC

Personal attacks will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't do this again. We've had to warn you about this before.

Your comment would have been fine with just the middle paragraph.