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IQ Matters Less Than You Think

nautil.us

111–120 of 347 posts

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#111
post #17
post #13

IQ measures intellectual ability. Intelligence is a necessary, not a sufficient condition for success.

Absolutely. It's not that complicated. Usain Bolt obviously has incredible sprinting talent. But if he sat around at home playing video games and eating potato chips all day, nobody would expect him to be an amazing sprinter. Everyone knows this. Yet for some reason there's this weird idea that intelligence without effort can yield results, where the same obviously doesn't apply to any other kind of natural talent. I…

FWIW, Usain Bolt trains about as much as a motivated amateur athlete (roughly 90 minutes a day). The big difference between the two being that motivated amateurs have day jobs, whereas Usain Bolt does not. His success is almost entirely talent, in other words.

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#112
post #101
post #12

There's supposedly some correlation between high IQ and mood/social disorders. One example article: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bad-news-for-the-... Perhaps that accounts for some of this.

Related, I have (had?) an above average IQ, am on the spectrum, and have many symptoms of ADHD...then I had a transient ischemic stroke. Everything calmed down after.

It sounds like you're saying your quality of life is better on the whole post stroke. Is that right? Pretty interesting if so.

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#113
Some intelligence forms are really hard to test and judge quality wise.

Recombination seems a useless quality, untill it creates a breakthrough- but for this it need either a internal or external intelligence to judge the output of the random generated recombinations.

Best of all, the process is not documenting itself as thought- so you can not produce a step by step judgement. Its just noise and the recognition as a pattern.

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#114
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. It's not that complicated. Usain Bolt obviously has incredible sprinting talent. But if he sat around at home playing video games and eating potato chips all day, nobody would expect him to be an amazing sprinter. Everyone knows this. Yet for some reason there's this weird idea that intelligence without effort can yield results, where the same obviously doesn't apply to any other kind of natural talent. I…

> weird idea that intelligence without effort can yield results In my experience, that 'weird idea' comes from early schooling. Highly intelligent (gifted?) kids generally don't have to exhibit any effort on school work, at least up to a certain time. I can tell you that, in my case, I coasted up until around 11th grade, then I hit a bit of a mental wall. I'm sure other physiological changes impacted, but at core, I…

It's all because schools generally focus on the common denominator and more talented children are lost to boredom and lack of challenges. This doesn't apply everywhere, but it certainly applied to my pre-university education.

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#115
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are instances of success without perseverance. For instance, the guy who invented GANs did it in one evening, more or less on a whim. One could argue that education and probably IQ were the dominant enablers there.

That guy has a B.S., M.S. and a Ph.D and works for Google. It's just a hunch, but I suspect he is very perseverant. Indeed, I'm not sure it's possible to even complete a Ph.D without being off the top of the bell curve on that trait which is why they're so revered.

[deleted]

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#116
post #91
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to "define" it in some philosophical sense to use it. Compare "mass". What is mass? Can you really define it? You can say what it does, but what "is" it? Well, nobody can define it, except in terms of the things that it does . Because those are all we see of it. We can measure it, we see those measurements let us predict other outcomes. So we can use our knowledge of mass in practical, predictive ways…

I never claimed that intelligence is nothing. I said that the IQ measurement is itself not worth much except as a general guide in fairly broad ranges. Intelligence is certainly something. It is relevant. But it is not precise, and is useful, as I said, only in the broadest strokes. And like all psychometrics, the manner in which it is measured is itself not stable. But comparing intelligence to mass or any other phy…

As someone who does research in this area, broadly defined, I think you're on to something, but I also think there are some misleading things about this article (which I nevertheless think is interesting) and caveats to what you're saying.

Lots of thoughts:

1. Intelligence is a broad construct. It is by definition, and it is not the only cognitive construct. It does have a lot of utility for certain purposes though, such as in identifying pervasive neurological disease.

As others are noting, this is relevant to the article in that we tend to focus on extremes when making these kinds of comparisons, when the full spectrum is really what's important sometimes. We tend to fixate on whether someone went to some prestigious university or less prestigious university, or whether our incomes are in the upper middle class or upper class, but in the sense of outcomes, compared to all outcomes, these can be relatively minor distinctions and hard to predict.

2. There are other variables that are relevant, like conscientiousness, ruthlessness, and so forth. This is certainly true.

3. There are still other variables that have nothing to do with the individuals involved though. The elephant in the room are societal and other random factors that prevent any individual attribute from mattering as much as they could. The article starts out by dismissing prediction among females out of hand because of societal limitations, which is reasonable. But there are lots of other variables involved, random and nonrandom societal and environmental forces at play. The hidden story is that there are limits to predicting outcomes at all from the individual at hand, meaning that other variables in the environment are working.

4. Measurement of intelligence is fuzzy and imperfect as you're alluding to. It's stochastically imprecise, in the sense that giving the same test twice, or two different tests, will give you somewhat different answers. But it's also imperfect in that the thing it's measuring isn't really what we probably want to measure in an ideal case. Even if the tests were giving the same answer all the time, it wouldn't really be intelligence in the way we want to talk about intelligence.

5. I'm not sure that we really want cognitive functioning measures to be perfectly stable, because I don't think cognitive functioning is actually perfectly stable. It probably varies across the day, for example.

6. Physical measurements are certainly more precise. But the objects systemically are much less complex. It's easier to talk about measuring the mass of a cubic meter of oxygen than it is to talk about measuring climatological variables; something analogous is in play with things like intelligence.

Also, even physical measurements at a certain level become fuzzy and highly interdependent. Measuring mass "precisely" depends on your scale and other variables.

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#117

Well, I like to think persistence matters more but getting into top 1% of everything requires more than determination. 1. Going from bad to good requires x amount of effort/persistence. 2. Going from good to best requires 1000x amount of effort. When you've put 800x amount of effort, you'll realize this harsh bitter fact. You have already given up on your hobbies, family, social life, ... and you are still considered…

Very much this - average genes, hard work, and sacrifice can generally guarantee upper middle class (barring accidents). Basically, all you need to get there is being a good cog in the machine. That is to say - you come in groomed, you do your job, you study or take night classes, you don't spend your money on having a life, you don't make mistakes which come with fun. Eventually, you will get to your $100,000/year and your 1 mil networth.

The sad part is that I have met some really low IQ people who are unable to even prep for a college exam, or the SAT, ACT, MCAT, whatever. So, their innate intelligence or upbringing denies them even the shot at an average comfortable life.

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#118
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there's also probably a big difference between the top 0.01% percent and the top 1%. The difference between the top 1% and top 2% isn't very important for most types of talent. Being in one of those categories for athletic talent, for instance, wouldn't get you into a professional sports league of any kind.

True but you are assuming the IQ test is inifinitely precise which I doubt it is. It is only a measure of intelligence.

they are very not precise. Most give a 80% confidence interval of +- 8 Points (or 1/2 STD). Also the different tests measure slightly different types of intelligence/put emphasis on other things. There's only ~0.8 correlation between modern IQ tests.

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#119
post #89

The title is a bit misleading. The study is basically comparing the path of the top 1% to the top 2% of the IQ distribution and arguing that it doesn't matter that much in term of extraordinary achievements (nobel prize, etc). If you compare the top 20% to the bottom 20% of the distribution I bet there will be a strong correlation to professional sucess.

That correlation does not mean that people's IQ caused their success or lack thereof. I would bet both are caused by economic circumstances, among other things, especially access to resources like good education.

Re: IQ Matters Less Than You Think

#120
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right but if you postulate that "perseverance" is prerequisite for "education" then why would Coolidge list it separately, as an argument that "it's not enough"? Also, there are other examples of success without perseverance. Obvious ones are inherited success: e.g. just being born as king makes one - well, a king. No perseverance necessary. FWIW, I do think it's a game of probabilities - all these traits (education,…

Gotta define success first. Seems we're ascribing it to mean power and wealth. Which is different from invention and technological innovation, or athletic achievements, or happiness, or longevity, or health, or lived experiences, or total percentage of time spent laughing, or comfort, or number of children, number of romances, sexual prowess, etc. I feel our culture currently holds a strange definition of success, th…

Well, if you want to be very precise about it, and start excluding dictionary definitions ([1] "success = the attainment of wealth, position, honors, or the like.") - then I'd argue it's more important to define "perseverance". Do we define "perseverance" as "keep doing something for a (somewhat longer) while"? If yes, it's absolutely required. Do we define it to require "in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement."? Then, it's far less obvious. Sure, there are always some obstacles... but in my experience, perseverance is more often caused by success, than the other way around. It builds up - you have some success, do the thing some more, have more success, do it even more, and so on until you're really, really good at it - and what looks from outside as excruciating effort & grit is in fact a work of love and passion, sometimes even a way to relax. You don't grit your teeth & keep doing a PhD that you hate until you discover GANs; you simply do the thing that you love until you reach a level of expertise where discovering GANs is inevitable. I think those who do their PhDs with pure grit, despite disliking the domain, will be far less likely to produce world-changing innovations.

[1] https://www.dictionary.com/browse/success

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