Live data from Hacker News

An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

chronicle.com

81–90 of 165 posts

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#81
post #63

Discussed earlier on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18127811 The hoaxers writeup is, I think, pretty misleading. Their work tended to get rejected from high-impact journals. They submitted multiple stories to some journals (notably, to Hypatia , which they brag about getting accepted in) and leave a clear impression that their most ridiculous work was what made it in, rather than a much more banal paper. Th…

> The hoaxers writeup is, I think, pretty misleading. Their work tended to get rejected from high-impact journals.

What's your evidence for that? A number of their papers got accepted into decently high impact journals, including Hypatia.

> They submitted multiple stories to some journals (notably, to Hypatia, which they brag about getting accepted in) and leave a clear impression that their most ridiculous work was what made it in, rather than a much more banal paper

The thesis of the paper that got accepted was that "criticizing feminist theory is unethical". That doesn't seem particularly banal to me.

> They quote almost entirely favorable feedback --- including, in their earlier writeup, from papers that were ultimately rejected!

Who cares if the feedback was on papers that were ultimately rejected? Does that change the fact that they received favorable feedback on an absurd hypothesis?

> They submit approximately the same paper to multiple journals and are rejected by all but the very most marginal.

This is simply not true. They got accepted by high impact journals, including Hypatia. You seem to think that the papers that got accepted were 'banal', but that doesn't change the fact that they were accepted.

> In at least one case, they cite the same reviewer multiple times, leaving the impression of a consensus.

Are you saying that they do not cite a diverse sample of reviewers? Because that is empirically false. What you seem to be doing is latching a single instance where they cited the same reviewer twice, and trying to use that to insinuate that they didn't cite feedback from lots of distinct individuals, which is patently false.

> 1. Peer review isn't replication and never could have been. Peer reviewers get, at best, a couple hours, unpaid; submitting researchers get many months, and are often grant-funded. The hoaxers took ten months to get a few papers accepted in marginal journals. The pop understanding of what peer review is is, simply, broken: peer review depends on good faith, and it was never realistic to believe otherwise.

Is that so? So, you'd have no problem getting a nonsense paper accepted into a math, computer science, physics or even economics journal? I would be extremely surprised if you could pass of work of such low quality in journals of comparable impact factor in any of these disciplines.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#82
post #81
post #63

Discussed earlier on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18127811 The hoaxers writeup is, I think, pretty misleading. Their work tended to get rejected from high-impact journals. They submitted multiple stories to some journals (notably, to Hypatia , which they brag about getting accepted in) and leave a clear impression that their most ridiculous work was what made it in, rather than a much more banal paper. Th…

> The hoaxers writeup is, I think, pretty misleading. Their work tended to get rejected from high-impact journals. What's your evidence for that? A number of their papers got accepted into decently high impact journals, including Hypatia. > They submitted multiple stories to some journals (notably, to Hypatia, which they brag about getting accepted in) and leave a clear impression that their most ridiculous work was…

I read over a couple of the papers. The descriptions of them by the authors did not match the content of the papers.

For instance, the one they call "Hooters" is described as "A gender scholar goes to Hooters to try to figure out why it exists." The actual paper is written as a record of transcripts of visits to a restaurant and an extraction of particular conversation themes. At no point did I see the paper questioning why Hooters exists -- the (apparently totally faked) data seems pretty stereotypically motivated, which I think may be their point, but I'm not sure short of a fraud investigation how reviewers are supposed to know that the particular group this author claims to have visited Hooters with didn't say the things supposedly directly recorded. That's a really dramatic claim for a reviewer to make: "This conversation which the author claims is a direct transcription from a recording couldn't possibly have happened because it seems too stereotypical."

Yes, the methodology isn't that great, and the paper was rejected.

More generally, the "study" isn't selecting random journals to see if they could defraud -- it is instead aimed at specific academic targets and a "test to failure" scattershot mechanism is used. Thus we have no idea whether these journals are any more discriminating than, say, PLOS or Nature.

Ultimately, I had some sympathy for the Sokal experiment in that it seemed to say something about the interaction of literary theory and physics. I don't get the same sense that there's much here other than "confirmation bias exists, even among gender studies folks!!!" which seems like it wouldn't take 3 people 10 months to figure out, and could be done in a much more direct way, and honestly isn't that shocking or rattling a conclusion.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#83
post #81
post #63

Discussed earlier on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18127811 The hoaxers writeup is, I think, pretty misleading. Their work tended to get rejected from high-impact journals. They submitted multiple stories to some journals (notably, to Hypatia , which they brag about getting accepted in) and leave a clear impression that their most ridiculous work was what made it in, rather than a much more banal paper. Th…

> The hoaxers writeup is, I think, pretty misleading. Their work tended to get rejected from high-impact journals. What's your evidence for that? A number of their papers got accepted into decently high impact journals, including Hypatia. > They submitted multiple stories to some journals (notably, to Hypatia, which they brag about getting accepted in) and leave a clear impression that their most ridiculous work was…

> Is that so? So, you'd have no problem getting a nonsense paper accepted into a math, computer science, physics or even economics journal? I would be extremely surprised if you could pass of work of such low quality in journals of comparable impact factor in any of these disciplines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

> A 2016 study in the journal Science found that two-thirds of 18 experimental studies from two top-tier economics journals (American Economic Review and the Quarterly Journal of Economics) successfully replicated. A 2017 study in the Economic Journal suggested that "the majority of the average effects in the empirical economics literature are exaggerated by a factor of at least 2 and at least one-third are exaggerated by a factor of 4 or more".

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#84

> Karl Steel, an associate professor of English at Brooklyn College and the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, called the trio’s work "simply not rigorous research" and described three objections to it. It is too narrow in disciplinary scope, he said. It focuses on exposing weaknesses in gender and ethnic studies, conspicuously ideological fields, when that effort would be better spent looking at mor…

> and the "grievance scholars" are slowly convincing the rest of academia that real scholarship consists not of neutral methods and honest argument, but agreeing with the grievance scholars in all things, and finding ways to inject it whether it's relevant or not.

What degrees or disciplines would you characterise as "grievance scholars", and what evidence do you have that suggests the influence those disciplines have over scholarship is increasing?

The amount of degrees awarded in women's studies over the last 10 years has significantly dropped.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#85
post #83
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The hoaxers writeup is, I think, pretty misleading. Their work tended to get rejected from high-impact journals. What's your evidence for that? A number of their papers got accepted into decently high impact journals, including Hypatia. > They submitted multiple stories to some journals (notably, to Hypatia, which they brag about getting accepted in) and leave a clear impression that their most ridiculous work was…

> Is that so? So, you'd have no problem getting a nonsense paper accepted into a math, computer science, physics or even economics journal? I would be extremely surprised if you could pass of work of such low quality in journals of comparable impact factor in any of these disciplines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis > A 2016 study in the journal Science found that two-thirds of 18 experimental studie…

The replication crisis is an entirely different thing. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#86
post #82
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The hoaxers writeup is, I think, pretty misleading. Their work tended to get rejected from high-impact journals. What's your evidence for that? A number of their papers got accepted into decently high impact journals, including Hypatia. > They submitted multiple stories to some journals (notably, to Hypatia, which they brag about getting accepted in) and leave a clear impression that their most ridiculous work was…

I read over a couple of the papers. The descriptions of them by the authors did not match the content of the papers. For instance, the one they call "Hooters" is described as "A gender scholar goes to Hooters to try to figure out why it exists." The actual paper is written as a record of transcripts of visits to a restaurant and an extraction of particular conversation themes. At no point did I see the paper question…

> I read over a couple of the papers. The descriptions of them by the authors did not match the content of the papers.

So did I. The dog park paper more or less matches its description. The fat bodybuilding paper is exactly as described. The dildos paper is as described. Do you have any descriptions aside from the Hooters one that you take issue with?

> Yes, the methodology isn't that great, and the paper was rejected.

Sure, but lots of them were not. I'm not sure why you would focus on a paper that was rejected when they had 7 that were accepted.

> More generally, the "study" isn't selecting random journals to see if they could defraud -- it is instead aimed at specific academic targets and a "test to failure" scattershot mechanism is used. Thus we have no idea whether these journals are any more discriminating than, say, PLOS or Nature.

True, though I have a hard time believing you could get the same result in any STEM discipline, though i'm certainly open to data to the contrary.

> Ultimately, I had some sympathy for the Sokal experiment in that it seemed to say something about the interaction of literary theory and physics. I don't get the same sense that there's much here other than "confirmation bias exists, even among gender studies folks!!!" which seems like it wouldn't take 3 people 10 months to figure out, and could be done in a much more direct way, and honestly isn't that shocking or rattling a conclusion.

I think the point of all this is that the epistemology of the field is intellectually bankrupt. It's not just confirmation bias. It's that within the epistemology of gender studies, they aren't even wrong.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#87
Those criticizing the hoaxers are missing their central point: a real field of study wouldn't be taken in by stuff that outsiders with any hint of common sense would very swiftly recognize as laughable nonsense and garbage. The real horror story is that there are so-called fields that are nothing except laughable nonsense garbage. When you call rotting garbage food, don't be surprised when rotting garbage contributed by outsiders is impossible to be differentiated from your official garbage.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#88
[throw away account as I am a recovering academic and wouldn't want to impact colleagues who have not been able to escape]

Everyone is distracted by the politics here when the real story is the effort.

Three people layman to these fields achieved a near tenure track publication list/ratio in a little over a year. I have a STEM PhD and I know that me and three of my friends couldn't do the same if we tried in a closely related STEM discipline much less an entirely different field.

Hypatia is the journal of record for feminist philosophy (and one of the few respected feminist journals in general). It should not be possible to go from 0 to published in a "real" top tier journal. If the paper is "not too crazy" that's even more damning! They produced a "real" paper as a joke? Do you really think that these same authors could get a paper published in The International Journal of Computer Vision in a little less than a year even if they were using fraudulent data? It would take them two years to know what they could and couldn't fake without being caught.

If the liberal arts don't want the sneering dismissal of their fields as low effort to become culturally entrenched they need to dump or reform the "X studies" departments and journals.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#89
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your criteria for publication is what is epistemologically true you are going to find it difficult to publish in any domain except possibly pure mathematics or physics.

Social Constructionism and Blank Slatism are theories that can be tested. There is plenty that can be published on these topics that is based in evidence rather than ideology.

However, if you fake (or, as in this case, completely make up) your evidence, then you'll be able to get false things published - the peer review process has no ability to verify if what you claim is true, it does not and will not re-test the theory, that might be done by other teams after your results are published but not before.

Re: An Elaborate Academic-Journal Hoax

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> doesn’t mean the system didn’t fail spectacularly. You're mischaracterizing the system; it doesn't end with publication. After publication, the science goes out to a wider audience of scientists who can build on the paper or refute it if they find it's wrong. Sometimes this process can take a long time and many cycles of publicans, but that's just the nature of science. We have to stop pretending like the peer revi…

What is the point of journals if quite literally anything can be published in them? Isn't the point that they serve as a basic filter for obvious noise? Shouldn't we be critical of a peer review process that doesn't function at even the most basic level?

A filter that does filter out the vast majority of obvious noise is very useful even if it lets something through. And the current peer-review does that, it throws out almost all of the spam; it pushes useful work of lower quality/impact down to less selective venues (generally with more specific subfields, so that I can read impactful work of domain X and less impactful work of subdomain X.2 but not X.1 and X.3); and even for accepted papers the process often results in significant improvements to them as a result of the reviews.

Explicit fraud isn't that common, since it does have risks to the submitter that far outweigh the (limited) benefits of getting an extra publication on your CV.

Post reply on HN