Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#151

Post by scarface74 » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 3:12 AM UTC

anonymous5133 wrote: post #68

MrEfficiency wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have a project, you learn by necessity. When you are taking a course to expand your abilities, you learn voluntarily. I find learning via projects is the fastest and most useful. I am unsure if I will take courses ever again.

I think you need a combination of both. Just working on random projects isn't feasible all the time. I've worked on projects where I simply did not know how to complete said project and googling didn't help much. There is real value from taking a voluntary formal course that is comprehensive. It will give you the basic foundation to master the subject. You can use projects to refine your skill.

Was it software related? Can you give an example?

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#152

Post by shard » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 3:36 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #83

rootusrootus wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a state university in Oregon... > You could enrol for a course and only turn up for the exams And aside from a few exceptions, this is exactly how I approached my studies. I'd show up on day 1, the day of each midterm, and the last day of class before the final exam.

I did this as well. I had to take “economic statistics”, as it was discovered late in my senior year that AP Stats couldn’t be used in my major. I didn’t show up at all, as the class notes were available online and all assignments were online submission (on a VAX, of all things in 1999). When I arrived at the midterm, the professor called the UPD, as he had never seen me before.

Back in college there was a class where all exams were take-home, and all homeworks and exams could be deposited in the professor's mailbox. I read the text, did homework with my classmates, passed the exams, and never even found out what the professor looked like.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#153

Post by MisterOctober » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:07 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #116

frv103 wrote: post #3

I'm not sure that course completion percentage is necessarily the best metric to be drawing conclusions from. I will often sign up for MOOCs and courses for a single talk, chapter, or topic that I'm interested in with no intention of actually completing the course. I wonder I'm an outlier in this regard or if this approach is much more common than the author of this article realizes.

Not to mention that if you watch anything at Khan Academy, they jiggle the page and nag you every 30sec to log in to save your progress (even when you dismiss the notification).

Taking this opportunity to gripe about KA : I took their intro to chemistry, and the production quality of the videos was so erratic that I thought it might be a joke -- e.g., first video disjointed, second coherent but sounded like it was recorded over a '50s telephone, etc etc.

Hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, but this one needs a housecall from the vet

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#154

Post by MisterOctober » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:13 AM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #6

frv103 wrote: post #3

I'm not sure that course completion percentage is necessarily the best metric to be drawing conclusions from. I will often sign up for MOOCs and courses for a single talk, chapter, or topic that I'm interested in with no intention of actually completing the course. I wonder I'm an outlier in this regard or if this approach is much more common than the author of this article realizes.

These are aspirational course sign ups, and are of course similar to aspirational book purchases (where I will learn a new language through psychic connection between the desk the book is on and the my hands on the desk) and aspirational gym membership (where calories will be burnt simply because my body knows it might go to the gym and so gets all worried and sweaty anyway)

That hits where it hurts! I'm the worst offender when it comes to aspirational book purchases. To the topic: On udemy, I see tons of folks leaving reviews who have purchased hundreds of courses [why udemy displays this info is obscure to me - maybe to generate some kind of courseload-envy?]

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#155

Post by MisterOctober » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:16 AM UTC

vezycash wrote: post #44

nicodjimenez wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point, courses are way too long. If a course could be completed in a day you'd have high completion rates.

For me, it's the length of individual videos that matter. I prefer those with 4-7 minutes minutes per video. I've noticed that many long videos can be much shorter with minimal editing to remove unnecessary pauses, uhmms...

Definitely. Especially for courses in the 20+ hour range, long lectures [say, more than ten minutes] can be a real drain.

Though I think most of the online courses I've taken have delivered exceptional value, as you say, the "one-take-and-done" editing style is ubiquitous and leaves one to sit through a lot of ummmming, digression, and jabbering.

[Come to think of it, so did most of my courses at university!]

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#156

Post by MisterOctober » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:26 AM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #29

frv103 wrote: post #3

I'm not sure that course completion percentage is necessarily the best metric to be drawing conclusions from. I will often sign up for MOOCs and courses for a single talk, chapter, or topic that I'm interested in with no intention of actually completing the course. I wonder I'm an outlier in this regard or if this approach is much more common than the author of this article realizes.

Yup, concluding that MOOC formats are more effective is similar to the charter school problem. If you filter for committed people then you end up with better looking success stats. But all it might be doing is finding and filtering those motivated enough to go through a school change process, or willing to put up with some hassle factor of something "online" but still requiring scheduled times, or other commitments.…

I agree that there's a lot of shaky assertions made about this pedagogical method. From my own perspective, though, on-demand courses like on udemy essentially solve all the problems I hated about classes for my brick-and-mortar university degree. To wit :

1) No distracting interruptions from self-absorbed students asking 'questions' [more often than not, really just statements] that would have better have been reserved for after class / office hours

2) Prof / TA doesn't show up drunk and disorganized

3) If you miss something while taking notes, no sweat -- just rewind and listen again! As a copious note-taker, this is huge for me.

4) Flexible class times keep me much more healthy [can get sleep when needed, etc]

5) No travel time, finding a seat, wanting to talk to a girl instead of focus on lecture, etc etc with all the frustrations / inconveniences that are just not there in online courses

I could rattle on a lot more, but ca suffit for now

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#157

Post by seventhtiger » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:32 AM UTC

Eridrus wrote: post #132

dwrodri wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a big part of this comes from the lack of emphasis on group projects and technical communication in MOOCs. How many MOOCs have you seen where you're actually encouraged to work in groups, and then eventually present your work? Even though the concept of an MOOC has been around for quite some time now, it's only recently that their curricula at the course level is actually consistently on par with what would b…

Most self-taught people I have met have come up with their own projects, or at least played with Kaggle, as people are usually advised to do. MOOCs are only a small part of the options people can and do exercise.

Self driven education has always existed. At least as long as you could check out books in the library. The Internet made it more convenient, but it didn't make it any easier. Most people thrive in a structured environment with superiors and peers. That's why universities are so much more successful than libraries.

There's also the problem of knowing what you don't know. If an expert in the field is educating you they will give you a full picture of the field and what's important in it. But if you're self taught you can miss entire areas and never realize their importance from reading academic sources.

I'm not against self teaching or MOOCs at all. I just think they need more structure and require more commitment to be as useful as university is to society. They're a bit too casual, requiring much more self drive which is harder than just setting deadlines and exams.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#158

Post by flattone » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:33 AM UTC

I wish for an online learning platform where I incur financial penalty to not completing milestones on time.

Today... I can do whatever the hell I want 247 (effectively nothing compared to what's possible under stricter circumstances). We could talk about self discipline or whatever but that's a whole other objective too, so why not just focus on root issue. Command of choices.

If for example my credit card were charged $100 every day I slide on a target? The specific implementation is obviously up for grabs but the context has been stated.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#159

Post by sytelus » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:34 AM UTC

TLDR; MOOC model isn't working well in the sense that 90-95% of students dropout because (1) when students gets stuck, the flounder (2) without classroom peers there is no pressure (3) deadlines are important to keep motivation.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#160

Post by ndnxhs » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:43 AM UTC

frv103 wrote: post #3

I'm not sure that course completion percentage is necessarily the best metric to be drawing conclusions from. I will often sign up for MOOCs and courses for a single talk, chapter, or topic that I'm interested in with no intention of actually completing the course. I wonder I'm an outlier in this regard or if this approach is much more common than the author of this article realizes.

I have signed up for online corses just to see what the content actually is before deciding if I want to do it.