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Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

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Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#91

Post by dsamarin »

k_sze wrote: post #89

And this is why engineers have invented the dead man's switch a long time ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man%27s_switch The basic idea is that the switch can only be maintained in a non-braking state by an alert, not-incapacitated person. If you press too hard, it brakes; if you don't press hard enough, it brakes. You have to apply just enough force, and that's something only an alert person can do. Clearly,…

How do you expect a driver to maintain a dead man's switch the entire time they are driving in manual mode?

Or conversely, suppose the switch must be maintained while the car is in autonomous mode, should the car pull over and stop on the side of the freeway? In terms of user experience I would expect the car to continue to the destination. The commenter discussing the use of sensors to detect the state of the driver and act accordingly makes more sense.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#92

Post by paul_milovanov »

apropos, Tim Harford is an economist and an author of multiple exceptional books on economics targeted to the general public, not a reporter. He manages to show how deeply fascinating economics is and that economic phenomena are part of the fabric of not just our societies, but the very natural world. I highly recommend his "Undercover Economist" and other books.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#93

Post by lern_too_spel »

fouc wrote: post #82
polskibus wrote: post #11

That tester detected a serious bug in the whole concept, inadvertently risking his life during testing. He should've been promoted.

The placement of the gas pedal does seem strange in retrospect if we think about people falling asleep in the car. I'd also be worried about people pitching forward in their sleep and banging their head against the steering wheel and activating something they shouldn't.

The normal mode of operation for an auto-taxi is nobody in the driver's seat.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#94

Post by andrewflnr »

feefie wrote: post #90

On 26 Sep. 1982 in 'Knight of the Phoenix' when Michael falls asleep KITT automatically takes over. Google should have a camera pointing at the driver and use machine learning to detect someone that is asleep or medically impaired and automatically take over if the car starts to leave its lane. Perhaps the driver could configure where it wants the car to go in such a case (if asleep: continue to final destination; if…

Maybe later, but there are an awful lot of fuzzy heroic heuristics in there. For now, I'd say the only safe thing to do when the driver falls asleep is come to a safe stop.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#95

Post by ucaetano »

feefie wrote: post #90

On 26 Sep. 1982 in 'Knight of the Phoenix' when Michael falls asleep KITT automatically takes over. Google should have a camera pointing at the driver and use machine learning to detect someone that is asleep or medically impaired and automatically take over if the car starts to leave its lane. Perhaps the driver could configure where it wants the car to go in such a case (if asleep: continue to final destination; if…

This is a test vehicle. Actual Waymo "production" cars don't even have drivers.

Humans are the weak link.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#96

Post by akira2501 »

dsamarin wrote: post #91
k_sze wrote: post #89

And this is why engineers have invented the dead man's switch a long time ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man%27s_switch The basic idea is that the switch can only be maintained in a non-braking state by an alert, not-incapacitated person. If you press too hard, it brakes; if you don't press hard enough, it brakes. You have to apply just enough force, and that's something only an alert person can do. Clearly,…

How do you expect a driver to maintain a dead man's switch the entire time they are driving in manual mode? Or conversely, suppose the switch must be maintained while the car is in autonomous mode, should the car pull over and stop on the side of the freeway? In terms of user experience I would expect the car to continue to the destination. The commenter discussing the use of sensors to detect the state of the driver…

> In terms of user experience I would expect the car to continue to the destination.

I ultimately hope this is a question answered by legal standards rather than by "user experience." If we're requiring drivers to be present even in autonomous cars, then they need to pull over and possibly take other alerting actions.

> The commenter discussing the use of sensors to detect the state of the driver and act accordingly makes more sense.

Are they asleep or merely in a diabetic coma? Can we tell? If we can't, should we even try this?

Ultimately, I'm really concerned about this line: "Improvements in this case meant altering night-shift protocol to have two safety drivers instead of one."

Humans may be bad drivers, I'd say a good look at the data would suggest otherwise; even so, the lesson for Waymo should be "Humans are also bad engineers."

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#97

Post by ipsum2 »

ucaetano wrote: post #95
feefie wrote: post #90

On 26 Sep. 1982 in 'Knight of the Phoenix' when Michael falls asleep KITT automatically takes over. Google should have a camera pointing at the driver and use machine learning to detect someone that is asleep or medically impaired and automatically take over if the car starts to leave its lane. Perhaps the driver could configure where it wants the car to go in such a case (if asleep: continue to final destination; if…

This is a test vehicle. Actual Waymo "production" cars don't even have drivers. Humans are the weak link.

> This is a test vehicle. Actual Waymo "production" cars don't even have drivers.

Source? The Waymo cars without steering wheels are just a concept design, not used in production.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#98

Post by [deleted] »

lolsal wrote: post #22

I feel like an old man shaking my first at the slow march of inevitable progress - but - this is exactly why 'drive assist' or any other flavor of automated driving that is not 100% automation is not useful to me. If I have to pay attention and babysit piloting the vehicle, I might as well be driving (assuming I'm of sound enough mind and body to actually drive).

[deleted]

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#99

Post by throwbacktictac »

>> At a company meeting to discuss the incident, one attendee reportedly asked whether safety drivers were on the road too long, and was told that drivers can take a break whenever they need to.

I hope they also have reasonable mandatory breaks. It would seem that there is pressure to stay on the road as long as your peers. Which could lead to drivers not taking breaks when they should.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#100

Post by lovich »

throwbacktictac wrote: post #99

>> At a company meeting to discuss the incident, one attendee reportedly asked whether safety drivers were on the road too long, and was told that drivers can take a break whenever they need to. I hope they also have reasonable mandatory breaks. It would seem that there is pressure to stay on the road as long as your peers. Which could lead to drivers not taking breaks when they should.

"whenever they need to" for breaks usually translates to, "whenever they need to find another job". HR/PR might say it, and they might even believe it, but the company will incentivized management for output. Those managers are going to be pushing their employees to do as much as possible with as little breaks as possible.

Unless they set up a completely separate chain of command that is in charge of validating if an employee is legitimately being fired, then it's always going to end up following their incentive structure

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