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Cities will sue FCC to stop $2B giveaway to wireless carrier

arstechnica.com

21–30 of 38 posts

Re: Cities will sue FCC to stop $2B giveaway to wireless carrier

#21
post #9

I'm kind of torn on this because I can see both sides of it. Some cities charge an insane amount to license a pole, others charge less. Should a small town be able to charge a $50,000 per year rent to put up a cell tower? Doesn't seem right, but in a densely packed city where space is tight maybe it makes sense to stop companies from dumping infrastructure. Then there are the time deadlines. Every worked with governm…

> Should a small town be able to charge a $50,000 per year rent to put up a cell tower? Yes, absolutely! > I don't think cities should be able to stifle the industry. Portland, OR couldn't stifle the industry if it wanted to. Besides that, city governments don't answer to the industry; they answer to their voters.

> Besides that, city governments don't answer to the industry; they answer to their voters.

Do you find your city government to be very responsive to your desires? Maybe it actually is in small towns, but in larger cities, the government basically does whatever it wants on niche issues like this, with no real oversight.

Re: Cities will sue FCC to stop $2B giveaway to wireless carrier

#22
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not quite as wasteful as it might seem. Even if there was just one national carrier that owned all of T-Mobile/AT&T/Verizon, they'd still need close to the current amount of RRUs + gear + backhaul, to support the same number of total users on all of the various spectrum bands being used. There would be some maintenance/cost savings. But not a huge night-and-day difference. -- For what it's worth, Portland charge…

Why are cities owning a pole used just by one company though? The only reason for a city to own the poles is so "everyone" can use them - electric, cable tv, telephone... The combined rent from them all should pay for the pole, not the rent from one. I don't know what a fair rent is though.

Calling poles public, and accessible to "everyone" is only true on a technical level. Practically speaking, companies have a financial interest in preventing others from using the public poles and they succeed in this.

Often, occupants of a pole can delay others from using the public pole for years at a time. We see this with competing internet providers tying up pole access for new-comers in court. On top of that, existing users of the pole can layout their cables such that new-comers would have to invest in re-positioning, which then also happens on the existing users schedule. This can also tie up the pole for years at a time. Embedding cabling along the roadside has similar issues, and depending on the timing, new-comers may have to incur the cost of repaving the entire section of road they use, not just the routing area.

Re: Cities will sue FCC to stop $2B giveaway to wireless carrier

#23

I am stunned that the FCC is not conditioning the receipt of this money with targets (phased giveaway where completion of one task triggers the next payment) and agreement by the mobile carriers to have their rate plans regulated until this money is repaid. If you're going to use government money paid to private corporations to do this then the private corporations should pay the government back out of the regulated…

Sadly I'm becoming less and less stunned by blatant corruption in the US.

If the cable internet market was more fair (limited providers, high rates in many areas) I'd have more hope.

Re: Cities will sue FCC to stop $2B giveaway to wireless carrier

#24

I am stunned that the FCC is not conditioning the receipt of this money with targets (phased giveaway where completion of one task triggers the next payment) and agreement by the mobile carriers to have their rate plans regulated until this money is repaid. If you're going to use government money paid to private corporations to do this then the private corporations should pay the government back out of the regulated…

This comment makes no sense. There is no discussion here of money being paid from governments to wireless carriers.

Did you read the article?

Re: Cities will sue FCC to stop $2B giveaway to wireless carrier

#25

Am I the only one concerned that they are rolling this tech out without further study? To quote the IEEE: "Millimeter waves are broadcast at frequencies between 30 and 300 gigahertz, compared to the bands below 6 GHz that were used for mobile devices in the past." In 2011 the WHO (World Health Organization) panel of scientists decided to label Cell Phones as possibly cancer causing after a review of the available stu…

https://xkcd.com/925/

Re: Cities will sue FCC to stop $2B giveaway to wireless carrier

#26

Am I the only one concerned that they are rolling this tech out without further study? To quote the IEEE: "Millimeter waves are broadcast at frequencies between 30 and 300 gigahertz, compared to the bands below 6 GHz that were used for mobile devices in the past." In 2011 the WHO (World Health Organization) panel of scientists decided to label Cell Phones as possibly cancer causing after a review of the available stu…

I seem to see comments regarding cell phone use / cell frequency and cancer risks fairly regularly now. So as I usually do, here is an NIH fact sheet with great references (for you as well as others):

https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/r...

Generally, there does not seem to be strong scientific evidence supporting a causal relationship between non-ionizing radiation exposure and increased cancer rates at ordinary levels.

I did find your linked study (https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/results/areas/cellphones/index.htm...) interesting but wanted to point out a few things:

1) These mice were subjected to whole body exposure for their entire lives (from utero to old age) 18.5 hours a day (9 hours of actual sustained exposure) which seems to be of questionable relevance to real-world human conditions. From one of the reviewers:

"There may be also several caveats relating to “under the conditions of these studies”, including how well the conditions recapitulate actual human exposure: whole body exposure from in utero to old age; 18.5 hours/day (10 min on/10 min off, for total of 9hr actual exposure); and dose;"

2) Only male mice in the sample demonstrated statistically significant differences from the control group, female mice did not. This is odd...and the reviewers take note:

"My concern regarding the control data came from the following two considerations. First, we need to consider sample variation. The incidence rates of the current controls for brain gliomas and heart schwannomas were 0. However, the historical controls were 1.67% for gliomas (range 0-­‐8%) and 1.30% for schwannomas (0-­‐6%). Given that there were substantial variations among the historical controls and the concurrent control is at the lowest end of the range, it is important to evaluate how different estimates of control incidence rates may impact the results of analyses. ... Second, it is puzzling why the control had short survival rate. Given that most of the gliomas and heart schwannomas are late-­‐developing tumors, it is possible that if the controls were living longer some tumors might develop."

That is to say the male control group didn't have any tumors develop but they also lived for shorter period of time than the the other groups (ostensibly also the female control). This is odd and explains a possible false-positive scenario where a short lived control group had a 0% expression of tumors naturally because they didn't live long enough for the tumors to develop.

Still an interesting result, but also a good illustration of why science places emphasis on reproducible results.

3) Implied/mentioned by #2, but there were no statistical variations between the female control group and the radiated female group. Perhaps female mice are resistant...or perhaps the male control was a non-representative sample. Either way this difference raises questions and the possibility of a false-positive.

So at the end of reading, I find this reviewer's summary to be most relatable:

"Looking at the data, I agree with the report’s conclusion: Under the conditions of these studies, the hyperplastic lesions and neoplasms observed in male rats are considered likely the result of exposures to GSM- and CDMA- modulated RFR. The findings in the heart were statistically stronger than the findings in the brain. But note, it is “considered likely” not “definitely is”...Results from the companion mouse study will hopefully add some insight."

The keys being "Under the conditions of these studies" which may not be relatable to real-world human exposure as well as " “considered likely” not “definitely is” ". So to your point:

> Exposing the majority of the US population to higher frequency waves than the ones already under suspicion of causing cancer seems like a bad call without further study.

There is ongoing research and study...some dating back to the early-mid 2000's...and so far there hasn't been sufficient evidence to show (or suggest) a causal link between non-ionizing radiation and cancer risk. At least that is my layman's understanding.

Re: Cities will sue FCC to stop $2B giveaway to wireless carrier

#27
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not quite as wasteful as it might seem. Even if there was just one national carrier that owned all of T-Mobile/AT&T/Verizon, they'd still need close to the current amount of RRUs + gear + backhaul, to support the same number of total users on all of the various spectrum bands being used. There would be some maintenance/cost savings. But not a huge night-and-day difference. -- For what it's worth, Portland charge…

Why are cities owning a pole used just by one company though? The only reason for a city to own the poles is so "everyone" can use them - electric, cable tv, telephone... The combined rent from them all should pay for the pole, not the rent from one. I don't know what a fair rent is though.

[deleted]

Re: Cities will sue FCC to stop $2B giveaway to wireless carrier

#28
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, do you have any thoughts on the substance?

Sure: the regulation in question removes the cities' ability to oversee the installation of the hardware. Currently, microcell installation in many places requires a city engineer to sign off on the mechanical part -- can the pole support this load, is the mount going to stand up to stormwinds, and so forth. The FCC edict turns it into a free-for-all: this is irresponsible.

Sure they can. They just can’t charge $10,000 for that work. It’s not like every power pole is a unique snowflake.

Re: Cities will sue FCC to stop $2B giveaway to wireless carrier

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berin Szóka, Matthew Starr, Jon Henke -- the authors of that opinion piece -- also oppose net neutrality. Their "think tank" organization TechFreedom is funded by the wireless industry and the Koch brothers. TechFreedom has also been (still is?) a member of ALEC. Jon Henke is a Republican political consultant and self-described "neo-libertarian". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Henke https://twitter.com/BerinS…

So, do you have any thoughts on the substance?

Sure.

The article you cite is irrelevant to the current debate.

Article you cite is about cable & broadband. Current issue is about cell.

Article blames government for squelching competition. Ignores phenomenon of regulatory capture.

Capitalists like me believe, without proof, that the job of government is to protect the marketplace, ensure competition. Laissez fair minded people only advocate deregulation, which is anti-market, anti-competition.

Article advocates 'open access'. That's probably a good idea, for cable. And everyone's for more efficiency. But I'm unclear how this notion translates to cell or how it relates to fees.

Current FCC action imposes price controls, dictates procedures. So consumer friendly regulations bad, corporate friendly regulations good? Again, libertarian rhetoric (Freedom Markets™) doesn't match their actions. aka Hypocrisy.

Did I leave anything out?

Re: Cities will sue FCC to stop $2B giveaway to wireless carrier

#30
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure: the regulation in question removes the cities' ability to oversee the installation of the hardware. Currently, microcell installation in many places requires a city engineer to sign off on the mechanical part -- can the pole support this load, is the mount going to stand up to stormwinds, and so forth. The FCC edict turns it into a free-for-all: this is irresponsible.

Sure they can. They just can’t charge $10,000 for that work. It’s not like every power pole is a unique snowflake.

Who are you to say what to charge, what is fair? What happened to charging what the market will bare, letting the market decide?

If Verizon continues to pay $10,000 to use a city owned utility pole, then I'm pretty sure the price is right.

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