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Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

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Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#121

Post by LeanderK »

EliRivers wrote: post #112
LeanderK wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, maybe i didn't clearly communicate my opinion. What I wanted to say is that I can't see how you could learn (without being exceptionally dedicated) challenging topics. Things you normally go to university for. Things where you constantly have to do difficult exercises, where you find yourself wanting to quit, but you have to keep pushing yourself through it. In the end, it's fun. But the path you have to travel…

I did a masters in maths with the OU. It was effectively eight months of full time work, spread over five and a half years (when I started, I was thinking about doing it in a bit under four, but once I realised how many hours just one topic was going to take me, I had to lengthen my timetable). As you surmise, difficult exercises and textbooks were the key; the occasional video was good only for mining something very…

Ok, interesting. I don't think I've really reflected too much why I feel this way before posting (hello internet!). I also may have probably over-generalized ;)

In germany, if you study at a university, you are completely on your own. Nobody is forcing you to do anything and you can push your exams into the next semester until they kick you out for studying too long. So, there are some similarities to online-lectures.

I think I have found my strategy for "getting good" at stuff:

1. I need to be motivated: I am currently motivated that I want to understand how machine-learning really works and can be improved. Getting exposed to research is super fun and currently the reason why I am doing all this. What's a good notion of generalization? What's representation-learning? etc. We have a very active community here and I get to know many people from the industry, academia etc. and through my research-assistant student-job I learn how they work on stuff.

2. Don't do it alone & and have a regular schedule: Solving hard problem-sets together is one of the most-rewarding things I have ever done in my life. I even try to do proofs from papers with others in my free time! But also: train with old tests together, do the problem-sets together etc. There are a lot of groups quickly forming during lectores or before tests that I can just join. I don't need to do everything together, but meeting one or two times a week is an immense boost to my dedication and everything is just way more rewarding. I had a few lectures where I was completely on my own and it was way harder to develop the drive I usually had.

I don't think I can really replicate this for online-courses. I'll adress the points from above:

1. A university is a place where there's always something interesting. So many people studying interesting things. When I started CS, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. The intellectual stimulus is better than I have thought it would be. An online CS-course would probably have also thought me about the topics, but I don't think you get to know any research groups and their topics. I don't think this is a fundamental problem with MOOC, because the situation can be different. But at this point in my life, it was quit important.

2. I think this is the deal-breaker. Reflecting on my life, I don't really do that much completely on my own. Most of my hobbies are not something I do alone. I also don't live alone (and I don't think I ever want to). Doing stuff in a team is just a real Value-Multiplicator (this probably reads weird, but I think it captures best what I mean) for me. It's not that things are not fun to do alone ("=" 1fun), but they are way more fun to do in a team ("=" xfun for some x > 1). I don't know whether organizing local study-groups for an online-course is really the same experience, especially if you're taking just a few courses.

Because we are in the real world, there are always exceptions to the rule. For example, I can program alone without any problems. I could probably program for days without anyone bothering me. It's not that it's inherently more fun, i really don't know why. I always get interesting ideas when I am alone and I like to develope them (before speaking with friends about them). I also like to read, but I haven't done this in a while. Some things are not that fun to do in a group.

I want add that I have already completed one and finished 30% to 70% of a few other online-lecture (some where not really interesting after a while, others I didn't have time anymore). So I am not speaking about the entire concept.

I think I am not alone, because this is a very common pattern at my university.

EDIT: after thinking about it: I really think that some things just don't make that much fun alone. And that includes a lot of things I do in university.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#122

Post by bigmit37 »

nothis wrote: post #108
qwerty456127 wrote: post #97

I believe education and testing/certification should always be considered 2 perfectly separate things and, ideally, done by different parties. There should be companies that educate people seeking to acquire knowledge and there should be companies that test people seeking a formal confirmation of their knowledge and issue them certificates. No exams should exist in an ideal university, their job is to educate you an…

Something I noticed is that exams are what we're always coming back to in terms of education. Employers want a confirmation that you learned something. That's a university degree. Even with respected websites offering confirmations, how can you trust that and how do you keep track of every website's quality? I noticed this about all those "machine learning courses" that are getting posted here. Facebook and Google ba…

One thing I’ve realized is that there is a lack of intermediate or more difficult material avaiable.Lots of these courses work on toy examples with data already cleaned up and organized.

I wish there were more courses breaking down the algorithms in the latest research papers and actually implementing the models .

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#123

Post by Eridrus »

nothis wrote: post #108
qwerty456127 wrote: post #97

I believe education and testing/certification should always be considered 2 perfectly separate things and, ideally, done by different parties. There should be companies that educate people seeking to acquire knowledge and there should be companies that test people seeking a formal confirmation of their knowledge and issue them certificates. No exams should exist in an ideal university, their job is to educate you an…

Something I noticed is that exams are what we're always coming back to in terms of education. Employers want a confirmation that you learned something. That's a university degree. Even with respected websites offering confirmations, how can you trust that and how do you keep track of every website's quality? I noticed this about all those "machine learning courses" that are getting posted here. Facebook and Google ba…

I don't think this is an accurate assessment of education in the ML space. There are tonnes of people who have self-taught themselves the material. The issue I see is that employers do not trust non-university credentials, and so there is a strong hiring bias towards PhD graduates, regardless of whether it is warranted.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#124

Post by InitialLastName »

jjeaff wrote: post #114
blihp wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the same way but I think people like us tend to be heavily over-represented on HN and probably represent a small fraction of the total audience. Similarly, I like to watch YouTube videos for specific technical content where the vast majority seems to prefer pop culture and cat videos. A couple of other personality types / situations to consider: 1) Some people treat learning the way they treat a workout... procra…

I was thinking about this the other day. The idea that most people are just watching garbage on YouTube 'might' be true, and that viewing educational or technical content is an outlier, but I'm not so sure. Sure, there are countless massively popular channels with garbage pop content, but that may be due to the "general" nature of the content. The broad audience keeps it at the top of the most watched lists. I think…

> Youtube is an amazing phenomenon that I think doesn't get > enough credit because of all the junk on there, but the > fact that I can search for how to remove the abs module on > a 2007 BMW 750li and get multiple videos showing how to do > it just blows me away and definitely makes it a lot easier > to get things done.

One of the garbage things about YT, though, is that the third thing on that video's "watch next" list will be some dude telling you that ABS part of a global conspiracy to get mind-controlling computers into every car.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#125

Post by InitialLastName »

komali2 wrote: post #8
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are aspirational course sign ups, and are of course similar to aspirational book purchases (where I will learn a new language through psychic connection between the desk the book is on and the my hands on the desk) and aspirational gym membership (where calories will be burnt simply because my body knows it might go to the gym and so gets all worried and sweaty anyway)

Yea, gym membership is a good comparison, actually. I know tons of people who signed up for a gym and never went, which means we could use the same argument the article does to insinuate that "signing up for a gym on your own is an ineffective way to get fit." Clearly there are more effective (and more expensive) ways to get fit, but some people manage on their own with a gym membership and access to /r/fitness or wh…

> some people manage on their own with a gym membership and access to /r/fitness or whatever, so it's not exactly ineffective.

Some people manage to get fit on their own without a gym membership or any equipment at all, so it's not exactly effective either.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#126

Post by thinkmassive »

scarface74 wrote: post #119
thinkmassive wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone has completed a certification or course, it becomes a potential topic for discussion. It doesn't matter much to me whether they paid for it, if there's proof it was completed (a code repo or documentation could be an alternative to paying for a certificate). I have certifications that people well below my skill level were also able to achieve, but I know I can speak to the topics much more authoritatively.…

If someone has completed a certification or course, it becomes a potential topic for discussion. It doesn't matter much to me whether they paid for it, if there's proof it was completed (a code repo or documentation could be an alternative to paying for a certificate). Any technology that I’m able to discuss intelligently is usually referenced as part of what I did on a job. I leave off any technology that I know but…

Do you not consider hobbies to be real world experience?

Personally I appreciate the opportunity to not be stuck taking on new work that depends entirely on my previous employment. I find that people who pursue interests outside the scope of their day job tend to be good at thinking through problems and maintaining a healthy attitude, so I’m glad to discuss hobbies with people.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#127

Post by dwrodri »

Eridrus wrote: post #123
nothis wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I noticed is that exams are what we're always coming back to in terms of education. Employers want a confirmation that you learned something. That's a university degree. Even with respected websites offering confirmations, how can you trust that and how do you keep track of every website's quality? I noticed this about all those "machine learning courses" that are getting posted here. Facebook and Google ba…

I don't think this is an accurate assessment of education in the ML space. There are tonnes of people who have self-taught themselves the material. The issue I see is that employers do not trust non-university credentials, and so there is a strong hiring bias towards PhD graduates, regardless of whether it is warranted.

I think a big part of this comes from the lack of emphasis on group projects and technical communication in MOOCs. How many MOOCs have you seen where you're actually encouraged to work in groups, and then eventually present your work?

Even though the concept of an MOOC has been around for quite some time now, it's only recently that their curricula at the course level is actually consistently on par with what would be seen in a good university environment (think like "Top 50" University).

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#128

Post by topkai22 »

dibstern wrote: post #46

I am highly skeptical of the research that shows low attendance causes poor grades. I attended 2/24 lectures for one subject, and I got the highest grade for the year, out of both semesters. And I have friends who don’t attend lectures often and do similar. We focus on assignments - programming & software engineering assignments eat far too much time to get top marks and still attend classes. When I finish assignment…

It sounded like questionable methodology- students had access to notes and slides, but it noticeable didn’t mention videos. Professors can communicate what they consider relatively important (and therefore what’s likely on the test/evaluation criteria) verbally and non-verbally during lecture, which can be captured by decent videography. If the non attending section didn’t get the video they were not given full course information.

That being said, as others have pointed out attendance likely increases skin in the game and results in more work in general. Another improvement across the general population is the social aspect of class, forming study groups or informal support structures, as well as increased attachment to material by being part of a group in general.

While as professional I much prefer MOOCs (even if I don’t finish them) I don’t think I would have gotten through my college curriculum without that social context. Just too many distractions. In fact, the most common reason for people failing out of my program was over use of video games and other media (drug and alcohol abuse got you placed into a rehab cycle with possibility of return). Being wanting to keep up with my known peers definitely motivated me to work more and consume material better

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#129

Post by _yawn »

I'm going to go against the grain here but just putting cameras in classrooms and dumping that on Youtube works just fine. The content on MIT opencourseware feels a lot nicer than things like Coursera or others even if it's more traditional. At the end of the day you just want to communicate efficiently, and imperfect access to information is a lot nicer than no access. Don't sweat the details.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#130

Post by scarface74 »

thinkmassive wrote: post #126
scarface74 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone has completed a certification or course, it becomes a potential topic for discussion. It doesn't matter much to me whether they paid for it, if there's proof it was completed (a code repo or documentation could be an alternative to paying for a certificate). Any technology that I’m able to discuss intelligently is usually referenced as part of what I did on a job. I leave off any technology that I know but…

Do you not consider hobbies to be real world experience? Personally I appreciate the opportunity to not be stuck taking on new work that depends entirely on my previous employment. I find that people who pursue interests outside the scope of their day job tend to be good at thinking through problems and maintaining a healthy attitude, so I’m glad to discuss hobbies with people.

Two thoughts:

Every job has “must have” requirements and “nice haves but be willing to learn”. I focus on jobs that will hire me based on the must haves where I can learn the nice to haves.

A lot of times that means the line between “work” and self study gets blurry. I might be “working” 60 hour weeks but producing 40 hours worth of work product and spending the rest of the time learning. That also means now my resume has work experience with the new-to-me technology/framework. It helps to work for small companies. You get more opportunities to learn and do low priority side projects on the job.

If that opportunity doesn’t avail itself, then do a side project and throw it up on GitHub and then we can discuss it.

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