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Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

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Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#111

Post by watwut »

groovybits wrote: post #18

The main justification for the argument in this article is: 'Learn at your own pace is ineffective because dropout rates are high'. However, the source article [1] that references the dropout rates also questions whether dropout rates is an accurate measurement of whether this learning style is effective or not. I'm not an expert on education, but logically, I'm thinking that effectiveness relies on an end result in…

The study I seen that measured successful by drop out rates compared loval paid students with other local paid students.

E.g. They were trying to see whether they save money that way.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#112

Post by EliRivers »

LeanderK wrote: post #101
j45 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is - online learning isn't just watching videos. In the case of software related tasks, it's learning skills, competencies, and building software, which is on the computer. Digital learning is not happening, because current implementations have been anchored in the past (recording lectures) instead of creating meaningful digital experiences. Educators generally don't have the technology skills to create mea…

Hmm, maybe i didn't clearly communicate my opinion. What I wanted to say is that I can't see how you could learn (without being exceptionally dedicated) challenging topics. Things you normally go to university for. Things where you constantly have to do difficult exercises, where you find yourself wanting to quit, but you have to keep pushing yourself through it. In the end, it's fun. But the path you have to travel…

I did a masters in maths with the OU. It was effectively eight months of full time work, spread over five and a half years (when I started, I was thinking about doing it in a bit under four, but once I realised how many hours just one topic was going to take me, I had to lengthen my timetable). As you surmise, difficult exercises and textbooks were the key; the occasional video was good only for mining something very specific. I watched three or four geometry videos while learning the history of geometry from Euler to Minkowski, but geometry is particularly suited to that medium.

You say you can't see how it can be done without being exceptionally dedicated; I don't know what counts as "exceptional dedication", but I feel there's a context missing here. Is it expected (not necessarily by you - but are you seeing this expectation in other people) that it's possible to learn large amounts of difficult material without putting the time and effort in?

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#113

Post by just_myles »

frv103 wrote: post #3

I'm not sure that course completion percentage is necessarily the best metric to be drawing conclusions from. I will often sign up for MOOCs and courses for a single talk, chapter, or topic that I'm interested in with no intention of actually completing the course. I wonder I'm an outlier in this regard or if this approach is much more common than the author of this article realizes.

You're not. I only ever need specific portions that I can't get on youtube tbh. I don't agree with the assertion that attendance makes a better student. We all learn on the job at some point and that is where the real learning begins.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#114

Post by jjeaff »

blihp wrote: post #109
frv103 wrote: post #3

I'm not sure that course completion percentage is necessarily the best metric to be drawing conclusions from. I will often sign up for MOOCs and courses for a single talk, chapter, or topic that I'm interested in with no intention of actually completing the course. I wonder I'm an outlier in this regard or if this approach is much more common than the author of this article realizes.

I'm the same way but I think people like us tend to be heavily over-represented on HN and probably represent a small fraction of the total audience. Similarly, I like to watch YouTube videos for specific technical content where the vast majority seems to prefer pop culture and cat videos. A couple of other personality types / situations to consider: 1) Some people treat learning the way they treat a workout... procra…

I was thinking about this the other day. The idea that most people are just watching garbage on YouTube 'might' be true, and that viewing educational or technical content is an outlier, but I'm not so sure.

Sure, there are countless massively popular channels with garbage pop content, but that may be due to the "general" nature of the content. The broad audience keeps it at the top of the most watched lists.

I think if you aggregate all the technical content, the "long tail" might be more numerous than the hump of the curve.

There are channels about programming, woodworking, plumbing, HVAC, construction, 3d printing, PC building, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, knitting, photography, cinematography,graphic design ... it just goes on and on. Sure, most of those channels may only have a hundred thousand or fewer subscribers (with some exceptions in the millions) but I wouldn't doubt that in aggregate they surpass junk like moviemojo and cat videos in time watched.

Youtube is an amazing phenomenon that I think doesn't get enough credit because of all the junk on there, but the fact that I can search for how to remove the abs module on a 2007 BMW 750li and get multiple videos showing how to do it just blows me away and definitely makes it a lot easier to get things done.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#115

Post by jj12345 »

nothis wrote: post #108
qwerty456127 wrote: post #97

I believe education and testing/certification should always be considered 2 perfectly separate things and, ideally, done by different parties. There should be companies that educate people seeking to acquire knowledge and there should be companies that test people seeking a formal confirmation of their knowledge and issue them certificates. No exams should exist in an ideal university, their job is to educate you an…

Something I noticed is that exams are what we're always coming back to in terms of education. Employers want a confirmation that you learned something. That's a university degree. Even with respected websites offering confirmations, how can you trust that and how do you keep track of every website's quality? I noticed this about all those "machine learning courses" that are getting posted here. Facebook and Google ba…

In addition to the scarcity of what I'd call "deep dive" materials, companies like Facebook and Google are frequently trying to encourage platform adoption.

MOOCs for purely pedagogical reasons are sometimes hard to find in ML, not only for the aforementioned reasons, but creating a MOOC is simply resource intensive. It follows that many of the producers that truly value education are actual universities. Hybrid models like Coursera and Udacity are still trying to figure out how to get out of the red.

All of this to say that I'm still very grateful for content creators who go beyond simple framework tutorials.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#116

Post by rhizome »

frv103 wrote: post #3

I'm not sure that course completion percentage is necessarily the best metric to be drawing conclusions from. I will often sign up for MOOCs and courses for a single talk, chapter, or topic that I'm interested in with no intention of actually completing the course. I wonder I'm an outlier in this regard or if this approach is much more common than the author of this article realizes.

Not to mention that if you watch anything at Khan Academy, they jiggle the page and nag you every 30sec to log in to save your progress (even when you dismiss the notification).

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#117

Post by Chathamization »

frv103 wrote: post #3

I'm not sure that course completion percentage is necessarily the best metric to be drawing conclusions from. I will often sign up for MOOCs and courses for a single talk, chapter, or topic that I'm interested in with no intention of actually completing the course. I wonder I'm an outlier in this regard or if this approach is much more common than the author of this article realizes.

Indeed. Also some platforms (I believe Coursera and EdX were like this last time I used them) only let you access old content if you signed up with a course when it was active. So you are incentivized to sign up for any course if you think there's a possibility that you might want to access some of the content at some point in the future.

People shouldn't confuse completion rate with a particular course with a student reaching proficiency in a particular subject. There have been several courses I've started were I quickly got annoyed by the copious amount of filler in the lectures and dropped the course in favor of a book or web tutorial.

In general I think MOOCs are doing themselves a disservice by trying to copy college courses.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#118

Post by alexrodriguez23 »

I think 'at your own pace' is great if you dedicate yourself and put in the time. But to actually get the desired outcome, you still usually need some sort of guidance and timeline to move along. I think this shows with a lot MOOCs vs Lambda School.

Re: Why we need more than “learn at your own pace” online learning

#119

Post by scarface74 »

thinkmassive wrote: post #110
scarface74 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the purpose of the actual certificate? As someone who has done dozens of interviews - I’m not a manager, but for about two years I was responsible for hiring and I’ve sat as part of a panel- most people don’t take most certificates seriously. Some, including myself, take it as a slightly negative signal. I’ve seen too many paper tigers. But then again, except for entry level positions, few hiring managers care…

If someone has completed a certification or course, it becomes a potential topic for discussion. It doesn't matter much to me whether they paid for it, if there's proof it was completed (a code repo or documentation could be an alternative to paying for a certificate). I have certifications that people well below my skill level were also able to achieve, but I know I can speak to the topics much more authoritatively.…

If someone has completed a certification or course, it becomes a potential topic for discussion. It doesn't matter much to me whether they paid for it, if there's proof it was completed (a code repo or documentation could be an alternative to paying for a certificate).

Any technology that I’m able to discuss intelligently is usually referenced as part of what I did on a job. I leave off any technology that I know but don’t want to be asked about or come up in a recruiter’s keyword search.

For instance, I don’t mention C/C++ even though I did it for 12 years or PHP.

I want my interviews to be focused on my strong areas and technologies that I want to use- which are usually the ones that I have real world experience with.

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