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Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

qz.com

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Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#51

Post by village-idiot »

duxup wrote: post #17
village-idiot wrote: post #5

Poor UX, poor safety controls. At this stage in the game, these prototype vehicles should absolutely detect whether or not their operators are paying attention, since they’re part of the safety system of the vehicle. Also, did they not learn from Uber’s fatal crash? A sole operator in these vehicles is a terrible idea. One person to monitor road conditions and one person to operate any computer equipment should be th…

What's the point if you have to pay attention? I'm being serious when I ask. I question weather people can safely use these vehicles in these modes where they're supposed to not interact ... but pay close attention at the same time. I think it is going to have to be full autonomy, or not at all.

This is a prototype vehicle. Safety controls must be implemented differently than a production vehicle that has passed some yet unspecified certification process.

Complaining about a prototype having different UX than a production vehicle is like complaining about a racing car having different seatbelts than a road car. Different design requirements for different usages.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#52

Post by lolsal »

icebraining wrote: post #25
lolsal wrote: post #22

I feel like an old man shaking my first at the slow march of inevitable progress - but - this is exactly why 'drive assist' or any other flavor of automated driving that is not 100% automation is not useful to me. If I have to pay attention and babysit piloting the vehicle, I might as well be driving (assuming I'm of sound enough mind and body to actually drive).

Waymo agrees with you, that's why their custom prototype car (the Firefly) didn't even have a steering wheel.

That sounds more like something up my alley... but I would prefer to be a late-adopter personally :)

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#53

Post by azinman2 »

NickM wrote: post #50
lolsal wrote: post #22

I feel like an old man shaking my first at the slow march of inevitable progress - but - this is exactly why 'drive assist' or any other flavor of automated driving that is not 100% automation is not useful to me. If I have to pay attention and babysit piloting the vehicle, I might as well be driving (assuming I'm of sound enough mind and body to actually drive).

How do you feel about cruise control? Or automatic transmissions? I like semi-autonomous systems because they still take some of the cognitive load off of driving. Paying attention is still easier than paying attention plus constantly having to adjust speed/steering/etc.

You need to still have some kind of important task to keep your focus, otherwise you get these kinds of accidents.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#54

Post by dsfyu404ed »

loceng wrote: post #37
Qworg wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely the correct response - what is the role of testing if not to uncover flaws in both design and implementation?

It does make me wonder what screening for test drivers they use.

They call up a temp agency and say "we need X people who have a valid driver's license, a pulse and can piss clean"

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#55

Post by duxup »

village-idiot wrote: post #51
duxup wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point if you have to pay attention? I'm being serious when I ask. I question weather people can safely use these vehicles in these modes where they're supposed to not interact ... but pay close attention at the same time. I think it is going to have to be full autonomy, or not at all.

This is a prototype vehicle. Safety controls must be implemented differently than a production vehicle that has passed some yet unspecified certification process. Complaining about a prototype having different UX than a production vehicle is like complaining about a racing car having different seatbelts than a road car. Different design requirements for different usages.

I'm thinking about actual usage, not the UX.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#56

Post by williamscales »

dmoy wrote: post #43
bryanlarsen wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be classified as "Level 3" autonomous, aka "Driver must be available to take over controls". Waymo has publicly stated that it feels that Level 3 autonomous is unsafe and that it's goal is Level 4 "Driver not expected to take control". Waymo currently has Level 3 cars, which is why they employ safety drivers and haven't made their cars publicly available.

I thought they also had some l4 cars without steering wheels and stuff. Those must not have manual mode (right?! Or what? How?). I have no idea how to know exactly though. Waymo is pretty tight lipped about this. I work at Google and I don't know for sure.

They had the little bubble cars running around for a while that didn't appear to have a steering wheel but I believe they were controllable via a joystick.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#57

Post by red75prime »

polskibus wrote: post #11

That tester detected a serious bug in the whole concept, inadvertently risking his life during testing. He should've been promoted.

> a serious bug in the whole concept

Manual driving mode bell is not loud enough?

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#58

Post by logfromblammo »

Fricken wrote: post #16
kalleboo wrote: post #9

It's so sad how these companies are spending billions on developing this technology and then still cheap out on the test drivers by having them drive solo and for too long hours (and presumably at minimum wage)

Waymo's vehicle operators make $20 bucks an hour. The driver was about an hour into his shift when he dozed off.

Article implies without stating outright that the driver was working a night shift, which are problematic for sleep schedules across a wide range of industries. People fall asleep at night, even when they are expected by their bosses to be alert. Waymo responded by walking back their cut of safety drivers from 2 to 1, but only for night shifts.

If you tell someone that they will be fired the literal instant they doze off, all you are doing is guaranteeing that they will get fired, especially when you also task them with a boring job and ban all means by which they might boost their orexin levels during their shift. That is one of the hormones that regulate alertness, and responds to mental engagement. It cycles up and down with the circadian period. The result: bored at night; out like a light. The occupants of a self-driving vehicle will fall asleep at night. If you aren't testing that use case, you aren't doing your job.

Managing alertness levels at night is the company's problem. Bright lighting with plenty of blue light in the spectrum is part of it. Keeping the employees from getting bored is, too. Sleep countermeasures will have to be installed with user-monitored car automation, and the safety-driver/tester just saved Waymo from a future liability nightmare. Why are they no longer with the company?!

I think one solution may be to gamify safety-driving such that the human safety for an autonomous driver earns points for vigilance-related tasks. Identify potential road hazards before the autonomous system does. Count blue cars. Play the 49-state license plate game. Play a trivia game over the audio system. Hear about local points of historical interest near where you are driving. Anything other than silently watching moving road lines extend beyond the range of your headlights.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#59

Post by duxup »

mikestew wrote: post #48
duxup wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point if you have to pay attention? I'm being serious when I ask. I question weather people can safely use these vehicles in these modes where they're supposed to not interact ... but pay close attention at the same time. I think it is going to have to be full autonomy, or not at all.

I question weather people can safely use these vehicles in these modes Of course they can't. Watch people who've been looking at their phone while the light's red. Watch how they drive after it turns green. Some of them drive away like they're drunk, lurching and weaving, like they're reorienting themselves to the driving task. On the rare occasions I get even slightly engaged with the phone at a light, it's almost l…

Indeed.

You also miss the interaction between humans. If another driver and I look at each other, we're at least aware of our existence together and I know what is up.

If a driver doesn't look at me ... does he know? does his car know? If he is suddenly given the wheel ... I don't think humans can handle that.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#60

Post by mnw21cam »

mikestew wrote: post #48
duxup wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point if you have to pay attention? I'm being serious when I ask. I question weather people can safely use these vehicles in these modes where they're supposed to not interact ... but pay close attention at the same time. I think it is going to have to be full autonomy, or not at all.

I question weather people can safely use these vehicles in these modes Of course they can't. Watch people who've been looking at their phone while the light's red. Watch how they drive after it turns green. Some of them drive away like they're drunk, lurching and weaving, like they're reorienting themselves to the driving task. On the rare occasions I get even slightly engaged with the phone at a light, it's almost l…

And that's why it's illegal (at least here) to do stuff like that with your phone, even when stopped at a red light.
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