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Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

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Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#941

Post by onetimemanytime »

skybrian wrote: post #663
rubidium wrote: post #491

There's been similar moves in the past. Most famous of which is Ford's $5 / day. http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2014/01/03/blogs/post-per... Ford's quote from the time is relevant today: “The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers.…

Yeah, I don't take that explanation at face value because it's describing a perpetual motion machine. Sales to your own employees are only going to be a trivial amount of revenue for any reasonable business. And I'm sure he knew that. But interpreted charitably, it's showmanship. This is a way to show leadership, get a lot of publicity, and hire better workers, so what's not to like?

He meant that other employers will follow...the shoemaker will buy a Ford car and Ford employees will buy more shoes.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#942

Post by walshemj »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #800
WalterBright wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has always been a nation of middle class people, even back in colonial times. The exception was the southern slave economy, which didn't have much of a middle class.

it's a pretty big exception, even if the other part is true. (And thanks for acknowledging the exception up front!) At the high points, 20% of the total U.S. population were enslaved. At that point, it's not just an exception, it's a problem with the entire premise, even if the entire rest of the population was 'middle class', which they weren't. What allowed the U.S. economy to function with an unusually large porti…

Not sure where your drawing your data from the US does have a large working class population and always has had.

Up in the hollers you can still find some very poor working class people and its noticeable that the forces recruit from these populations (this is from conversations with USAF personnel)

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#943

Post by walshemj »

kidsnow wrote: post #797
refurb wrote: post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s not middle class. If you recently bought a $1M plus condo in SF, you are most certainly upper class. I don’t care if it was a 2 bedroom apartment.

It's not about dollars. It's about your behaviors. Behaviors of the middle class. Middle class people typically do things like own one home, work two jobs, save for their kids' college, keep their cars for a while, etc.

No its social status you can be a poorly paid academic/scientist and are middle class but say a train driver on 80k a year will consider themselves working class

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#944

Post by walshemj »

refurb wrote: post #883
kidsnow wrote: post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about dollars. It's about your behaviors. Behaviors of the middle class. Middle class people typically do things like own one home, work two jobs, save for their kids' college, keep their cars for a while, etc.

Yes, but location matters. If you have the common middle class trappings in SF, you are upper class, not middle. Hell, if you have a lawn in Sf you are super wealthy.

Or your parents where hippies in the 60's and you inherited a property.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#946

Post by walshemj »

prolikewh0a wrote: post #776
moftz wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing for many people an Amazon warehouse job is stable employment near their small town that might not have many opportunities otherwise. Lots of small towns on this list and I can't imagine all of them had a booming economy before Amazon showed up. I'm not saying it's right to abuse your workers but $10/hr goes a long way in some places. It's not the same as working in a coal mine but it has some similar the…

>I'm guessing for many people an Amazon warehouse job is stable employment near their small town that might not have many opportunities otherwise. Not with the 2nd highest turnover of all Fortune 500's. https://www.ibtimes.com/amazoncom-has-second-highest-employe...

Well most fortune 500 companies don't have large numbers of minimum wage workers.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#947

Post by pc86 »

maym86 wrote: post #925
chimeracoder wrote: post #906

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't automation eliminate the need for negotiating with a union? Not if the union literally forbids you from introducing automation in the first place. This is how the Transit Workers Union prevents the MTA from using technology that's been standard across the industry for decades. An alternate strategy is to require the employer to pay the union when new technology is introduced. This drives up the cost of tech…

Why did MTA agree to it? They were involved in writing and bargaining the contract too. I doubt a private sector union at Amazon would have the power to get such a deal.

One thing that comes to mind is the union saying that clause is a dealbreaker, and being willing to strike unless it's included.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#948

Post by jrockway »

throwawaymath wrote: post #907
chimeracoder wrote: post #906

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't automation eliminate the need for negotiating with a union? Not if the union literally forbids you from introducing automation in the first place. This is how the Transit Workers Union prevents the MTA from using technology that's been standard across the industry for decades. An alternate strategy is to require the employer to pay the union when new technology is introduced. This drives up the cost of tech…

Could you share some reading material about your MTA example? I've never heard that before.

The TL;DR is that the L (and soon 7) line is automated with something called "communication-based train control". They still have an operator and conductor on every train, even though the train is perfectly capable of driving itself and making station announcements itself.

I think the MTA thought they could kill off the conductor's position when the trains were fully automated, because the operator could take on the conductor's role now that they don't have to actually operate the train. The union did not allow that.

In the end, this is not really the MTA's biggest problem. CBTC was supposed to increase capacity on the L, but it didn't in reality because the MTA doesn't own enough rolling stock to actually offer that capacity, and the terminals on the L don't allow them to turn trains quickly enough to make the signalling system the bottleneck. (The 7 will be better, though, as at least the Hudson Yards terminal has tail tracks that allow the trains to enter the terminal at full speed. The same cannot be said of 8th Ave. on the L, where trains have to crawl into the terminal because the track ends a few feet after the end of the platform.)

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#949

Post by [deleted] »

skybrian wrote: post #766
Smokey28 wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. I've spent the last year or so studying Ford. His whole point was that if people didn't have the money to buy his product or time to use it (he reduced work hours as well) then your business will never survive. He wasn't banking on employee sales, he was looking at employees as a snapshot of a wider market. Great example is fast food as well. If you are offering the "lowest cost" food option, and provid…

For a profitable company where wages are a major expense, it seems like lower prices with higher wages can only be achieved with higher productivity. I think an economist would attribute this more to Ford's assembly line? But sure, a high-productivity business can lead the way on wage increases. Other businesses might have to raise prices to keep up. I'd like to read more about Ford's effect on wages outside Detroit.…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#950

Post by eeZah7Ux »

WalterBright wrote: post #752
smilbandit wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and thus grew the middle class. The middle class is something we truly need to focus on growing again.

America has always been a nation of middle class people, even back in colonial times. The exception was the southern slave economy, which didn't have much of a middle class.

Not at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...
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