Coders Automating Their Own Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#341

Post by m00n » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:07 AM UTC

caoilte wrote: post #333

m00n wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say you would feel "sad". To be honest, I would feel cheated. And to set up this smokescreen with pseudo-gardening people (or prerecorded data entry screencaptures to stay with the article) is outright fraught, IMHO.

Strange. It might be a cultural difference. I value outputs. To worry about how work is done if it is done well is micro-management. Some people do want to pay money to have employees that look busy. I knew someone (in America it has to be said) who lived on a road where one person would constantly be getting gardening done just to show that they could afford it. It was constant re-work and pointless, which just show…

Maybe it really is a cultural difference. I think there is a continuum of valuations at work here:

If a contractor gets his materials cheaper or does have cheaper labor available, I don't see any obligation or market process to pass these savings onto clients, when the work is of the same quality.

On the other hand, when you delegate work to an expert, and he doesn't tell you about the 99% savings you could employ with existing technologies, I feel this is bad conduct, regardless of output. It just amounts to a 9900% markup on his value. I don't think this kind of markup is ethical, but probably the market will catch up to this expert and revalue him.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#342

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:13 AM UTC

tummybug wrote: post #331

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I find fascinating about the article is that it's assumed the cleverness was the code written to automate. This is incorrect; the cleverness is in noticing when a task can be automated. Typically, the code itself is trivial. I have told my work more than once that if they wanted to get the most out of me they should put me on the "front line" for a month or two, and let me decide what needs to be automated.…

I have also asked this, I can't understand why my managers always think its a joke idea.

It's because they don't want you to do their job. Job protectivism (?) is a serious thing.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#343

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:15 AM UTC

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #303

peteforde wrote: post #119

You know how sometimes you love an article so much that you are annoyed you didn't write it? This does a better job than I could have of tieing together a dozen threads of conversation that I've had with various friends for years. I actually believe that there's a culture war implied in this debate; the question of who deserves to reap the gains of automation is more than just philosophy or ethics. The question "is t…

One thing I find fascinating about the article is that it's assumed the cleverness was the code written to automate. This is incorrect; the cleverness is in noticing when a task can be automated. Typically, the code itself is trivial. I have told my work more than once that if they wanted to get the most out of me they should put me on the "front line" for a month or two, and let me decide what needs to be automated.…

That's because you're asking "Put me in charge and I'll tell you what needs fixing", instead of telling them what needs fixing first. I'd see if you can start with a thing or two, making sure to organize a presentation or something to present your work and the direct benefits from it - making sure to invite the managers' manager if possible. Alternatively, send an email to important people about the success.

Show, don't tell.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#344

Post by turnitoff » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:29 AM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #342

tummybug wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have also asked this, I can't understand why my managers always think its a joke idea.

It's because they don't want you to do their job. Job protectivism (?) is a serious thing.

No. By the time you get hired and you are appointed a set of things to automate, it's usually followed by a long line of deliberation and resource management and prioritizing that's determined on the higher up.

There is a thing called "process debt", in the same way as technical debt, that some things are done manually. This can be mundane routine work, that might be up to 80% easy to automate, but allows for oversight and flexibility and often works with systems that are not trivial to work with. Other times the manual process is just cheaper to maintain than it is to invest in a "good enough" automation. You can also follow this by looking at the practice of offshoring and the amount of automation invested into offshored service centers (who benefit most from these solutions via specialization and scaling).

So even if the company hires a goddamn genius, if you want to automate stuff without breaking existing flows, you need quite a few months of understanding of the environment and the real needs of the process (business wise as well), etc.

And that's why managers think it's a joke idea.

(And it also comes off as extremely arrogant, because it's essentially calling your coworkers stupid by saying "I'll see something that you haven't noticed in years!")

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#345

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:44 AM UTC

m00n wrote: post #316

A question for the people that have a positive attitude towards keeping time savings for yourself instead of passing them on to your employer. Would you be also okay with the following situation: You have someone remodell your garden. He comes up with an estimate of 1 week worth of full-time work for two people. Based on your experience this seems reasonable and you agree on a fixed price of 10000$. Two scenarios of…

[deleted]

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#346

Post by anticensor » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:47 AM UTC

lrem wrote: post #63

eindiran wrote: post #7

I've automated large chunks of my job away, but I've never felt that I ended up not having things left to do as a result. There are always more tasks to automate and more problems to solve. I get the impression from these stories that the dishonest part of what the self-automaters are doing is that they could do other tasks and use automation to increase their productivity, but instead chose to keep their productivit…

Come to SRE. We are seriously expected to fully automate our job away twice a decade and still manage to just keep growing.

Does SRE stand for Site Reliability Engineer?

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#347

Post by sambe » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:50 AM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #343

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I find fascinating about the article is that it's assumed the cleverness was the code written to automate. This is incorrect; the cleverness is in noticing when a task can be automated. Typically, the code itself is trivial. I have told my work more than once that if they wanted to get the most out of me they should put me on the "front line" for a month or two, and let me decide what needs to be automated.…

That's because you're asking "Put me in charge and I'll tell you what needs fixing", instead of telling them what needs fixing first. I'd see if you can start with a thing or two, making sure to organize a presentation or something to present your work and the direct benefits from it - making sure to invite the managers' manager if possible. Alternatively, send an email to important people about the success. Show, do…

I don't think that's what is being suggested. They aren't asking to be in charge, they are asking to experience the (potentially automatable) problems first. The leaders do not tend to be associated with the front lines.

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#348

Post by mac01021 » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:50 AM UTC

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #248

kbenson wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there exists a large contingent of people who believe with all of their heart that God wanted them to find it, that the person who lost it should have been more careful, that they are just having a lucky day. A large part of how America sees work, poverty and wealth was historically influenced by the Protestant Work Ethic, and I think that lingers quite a bit today. I think it's why a lot of people view the poor as…

> I think it's why a lot of people view the poor as lazy (because obviously if they weren't lazy, they wouldn't be poor, right?). There's a sleeps-on-the-street homeless guy living in my neighborhood. I talk to him on occasion. A couple days ago he said he was bored off his ass, and that he was thinking of getting a part time job. I did not verbally respond to his potential quest for employment, but I did find myself…

The shower should be an easy problem to fix. I'm sure he can find access to running water _somewhere_ (if you're not in the desert).

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#349

Post by mrec » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 11:03 AM UTC

shoo wrote: post #314

sonnyblarney wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's cultural and more pragmatic. Those who work hard, a positive outlook, maintain themselves and their families, are resourceful ... will likely be healthy and abundant. The farmer who idles away doing not much will have a bad crop. The farmer who is responsible and diligent, mends his fences, ploughs well, keeps his equipment clean and proper and minds the livestock ... will likely do well. Except in case of disas…

> Looking at the history of religious thought in the US, it's not the Protestant work ethic per se, but in large part the "prosperity gospel" or prosperity theology [1] -- this belief that God will reward the right kind of Christians with material wealth. > Except in case of disaster of course, and then maybe some kind of metaphysical excuses might come into play! there's a particularly distressing variation of this…

> that conclusion is perhaps a reasonable and logical one given belief in enough axioms like "there is an omnipotent god", "if we live a certain way god will reward us", "the universe is generally fair".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

Re: Coders Automating Their Own Job

#350

Post by iamleppert » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 11:12 AM UTC

peteforde wrote: post #126

iamleppert wrote: post #115

And what happens when this job eventually ends (as they all do) and the only thing you've had to show for your time spent in industry is your league of legends score? Meanwhile your peers would have likely moved on, gained skills and progressed in their careers in someway. Sounds like a sure-fire way to deadend your career and limit your future prospects.

One thing that I find maddening about this topic is the assumption that people who automate their jobs won't take the new time they get back and put it to better use. For some, that could be learning skills or working on a startup, and others might just want to spend time with their kids. That said, it seems incredibly wrong to judge someone for being clever enough to relax and get paid for it. And if someone enjoys…

I was addressing the exact situation in the article where the guy used the time to play league of legends. But you’re right it’s not for me to judge how others spend their time.