This spawned a question for me that seems like it must be nonsensical but I don’t know the answer. Why did the Big Bang not just produce a Big Hole? IOW, if all the current mass of the universe was in a small volume wouldn’t it have promptly created a black hole? I’m assuming the answer has something to do with mass not actually existing in its current form until the universe expanded enough. However I don’t have any…
I'm absolutely not an expert, but I believe there wasn't any mass at first; it was all energy. It had to slow down to become mass, at which point it was spread out enough. Or something along those lines. Another possibility is that black holes are places where lots of mass accumulates in the same place in space, while the big bang was a rapid expansion of space itself. Even if there was enough mass in one spot to be…
Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter
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Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter
#12Assuming this pans out, is there anything left but WIMPs?
Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter
#13Does this mean that black holes possibly might not even exist? Aren't there examples of them being directly observed?
We have observed their x-ray jets directly and have observed their creation (recently). Pretty sure they exist. :)
We have observed specific phenomena but not that which created such phenomena.
As far as "Black Holes" as per theoretical descriptions are concerned, they cannot exist in a finite time universe as far as we (the observers) are concerned. The theoretical models used all have as a basic assumption that increasing gravity (whatever that may be) will cause a slow down in time as observed at distances away from such increase. As such, all phenomena involved in the creation of such entities will slow to a complete stop as far as we are concerned.
Hence, if the universe is of any finite duration, we will not have seen the creation of even 1 black hole of any kind. On the other hand, if the universe has existed eternally, it is still likely that these entities are still in the process of formation and not yet in existence.
I don't doubt we are seeing some interesting phenomena, but not the entities called "Black Holes". The argument for the creation involves changing perspective to some observer who is falling into or through the event horizon (choose which one of these you want, as there are apparently a couple of choices here in the theoretical models). Since we are not such observers, that perspective is actually irrelevant to us. What is relevant is what we observe in the universe at large.
The basic problems (irrespective of mathematical assumptions) with the processes of "Black Hole" generation relate to non-uniformity of compression, time dilation and other basic assumptions for the "Black Hole" models.
I find the reasoning used for the existence of "Black Holes" in our universe to be lacking in logical rigour and appears to have a lot of hand-waviness to it.
I am currently reading the documentation for the Metamath system and there are some quite enlightening comments in that about mathematics and those who study it. Especially as it relates to us who are not mathematicians as our career. One of these relates to the amount of "faith" we have to exhibit when trusting that specific "proofs" are in point of fact true. Even mathematicians who are not in that specific speciality do not have the necessary background to verify any proof outside of their own mathematical area.
Mathematics is a profoundly useful tool but as we have seen in the past and we will see in the future, it has problems (like all areas).
Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter
#14This spawned a question for me that seems like it must be nonsensical but I don’t know the answer. Why did the Big Bang not just produce a Big Hole? IOW, if all the current mass of the universe was in a small volume wouldn’t it have promptly created a black hole? I’m assuming the answer has something to do with mass not actually existing in its current form until the universe expanded enough. However I don’t have any…
I'm absolutely not an expert, but I believe there wasn't any mass at first; it was all energy. It had to slow down to become mass, at which point it was spread out enough. Or something along those lines. Another possibility is that black holes are places where lots of mass accumulates in the same place in space, while the big bang was a rapid expansion of space itself. Even if there was enough mass in one spot to be…
If there was no mass then what made the energy slow down?
For example a photon will travel at the speed of light in a vacuum indefinitely.
In what scenario does energy just slow down without interacting with matter?
Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter
#15This spawned a question for me that seems like it must be nonsensical but I don’t know the answer. Why did the Big Bang not just produce a Big Hole? IOW, if all the current mass of the universe was in a small volume wouldn’t it have promptly created a black hole? I’m assuming the answer has something to do with mass not actually existing in its current form until the universe expanded enough. However I don’t have any…
I suppose it's even somewhat plausible that the answer to your question, in combinations with the other theories, are "all true", and that for various reasons or models the first N big bangs did result in immediate/fast collapse back to another big crunch/black hole, and that each subsequent crunch/black hole created another universe, until there was a universe that survived long enough to create several black holes, and so on and so on...
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce [2]http://evodevouniverse.com/wiki/Cosmological_natural_selecti... [3]https://www.amazon.com/Life-Cosmos-Lee-Smolin-ebook/dp/B004T... [4]http://evodevouniverse.com/wiki/Cosmological_natural_selecti...
Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter
#16This spawned a question for me that seems like it must be nonsensical but I don’t know the answer. Why did the Big Bang not just produce a Big Hole? IOW, if all the current mass of the universe was in a small volume wouldn’t it have promptly created a black hole? I’m assuming the answer has something to do with mass not actually existing in its current form until the universe expanded enough. However I don’t have any…
And that's why you didn't get a giant black hole. There was a lot of mass at very high density, and gravity was pulling very hard at it - but it was pulling (almost exactly) equally hard in all directions.
Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter
#17This spawned a question for me that seems like it must be nonsensical but I don’t know the answer. Why did the Big Bang not just produce a Big Hole? IOW, if all the current mass of the universe was in a small volume wouldn’t it have promptly created a black hole? I’m assuming the answer has something to do with mass not actually existing in its current form until the universe expanded enough. However I don’t have any…
Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter
#18Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter
#19This spawned a question for me that seems like it must be nonsensical but I don’t know the answer. Why did the Big Bang not just produce a Big Hole? IOW, if all the current mass of the universe was in a small volume wouldn’t it have promptly created a black hole? I’m assuming the answer has something to do with mass not actually existing in its current form until the universe expanded enough. However I don’t have any…
First you need to understand that the Big Bang was not an explosion of matter into space, it was an explosion of matter and space (technically space-time). This might be hard to wrap your head around, it might be easier to think about space-time as non-infinite, say curving back on itself like the surface of a balloon (though as far as we can tell it is infinite).
Second, during the early Universe just after the Big Bang when the energy density of the Universe was incredibly high the density was nevertheless incredibly uniform. So, let's say you are inside a soup of matter and energy with a density as high or higher than the core of a star, but there is matter in every direction, what way is gravity pulling you? This is the other non-intuitive bit, gravity isn't pulling you in any direction. Pick a volume of matter in space around you and consider how its gravity affects you, for every single volume there is a corresponding volume on the opposite side of you that has exactly the same mass and is exactly as far away from you, cancelling out the gravity from the first chunk. And this is true for every single bit of volume around you, there's a 1:1 mapping of bits of stuff around you with other bits of stuff on the opposite side of you which exactly counterbalances the gravitational force from the first bit. The gravitational field is uniform, so nothing collapses, no black holes form, no stars or planets form either.
It's only after the Universe continues to expand and minute variations in local density are gradually amplified (over millions of years) into denser and denser clumps that it becomes possible to form galaxies and galaxy clusters/super-clusters (and thus black holes).
Now, we don't know for sure whether or not there were isolated little "super clumps" of extra density in the early Universe which allowed for the formation of black holes prior to the formation of galaxies (so-called primordial black holes). That's one theory for explaining the existence of supermassive and especially ultramassive black holes, but it's unconfirmed. However, now it seems as though we have enough evidence to show that primordial black holes can't be the explanation for the evidence for dark matter.
Re: Black holes ruled out as universe’s missing dark matter
#20This spawned a question for me that seems like it must be nonsensical but I don’t know the answer. Why did the Big Bang not just produce a Big Hole? IOW, if all the current mass of the universe was in a small volume wouldn’t it have promptly created a black hole? I’m assuming the answer has something to do with mass not actually existing in its current form until the universe expanded enough. However I don’t have any…
I'm absolutely not an expert, but I believe there wasn't any mass at first; it was all energy. It had to slow down to become mass, at which point it was spread out enough. Or something along those lines. Another possibility is that black holes are places where lots of mass accumulates in the same place in space, while the big bang was a rapid expansion of space itself. Even if there was enough mass in one spot to be…
A single photon cannot have mass because it has zero energy in the reference frame where it is at rest (zero net momentum). But a pair of non-parallel photons can have rest-mass, and indeed the mass of the photons inside a star is considerable, for example.