Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#611

Post by hannasanarion » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #474

arrty88 wrote: post #323

>“We listened to our critics, thought hard about what we wanted to do, and decided we want to lead,” said Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos in the announcement. “We’re excited about this change and encourage our competitors and other large employers to join us.” Ha ha. This shouldn't have taken much thinking Jeff. It's a no brainer, no? The more you pay your people, the more they can spend on your stuff.

> The more you pay your people, the more they can spend on your stuff. This is the economics equivalent of a perpetual motion machine.

Isn't that what an economy is?

Are you telling me that if your employer stopped paying you, you would keep spending the same as you do now?

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#612

Post by mikepurvis » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 6:03 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #598

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony ...why the downvotes?

Because it doesn't make any sense. Amazon doesn't dominate the jobs market.

Depends how you look at it. The fulfillment centers are intentionally built out in the middle of nowhere where land and labour are both plentiful and inexpensive.

If you live in such a place and Amazon is your employer, it may well be the case that you don't have a lot of other options, especially if what you came from was being on social assistance.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#613

Post by badcede » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #610

askmike wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they get such bad press for the way they treat their workers it only seems fair to laud them for this. That's because they treat their workers terrible. They're a huge company with a lot of profit and how people at the bottom of the chain are treated is maddening. They're seen as an example of how not to treat workers (and for good reason). They definitely should not be lauded for this: They did some calculations a…

Why is it so shitty to congratulate someone for making a good change even if that change may have been in their best interest?

Because it feels bad to concede anything at all. Which is a form of greed in its own right.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#614

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 6:11 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #576

toomuchtodo wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then mom and pop will need to work their store, instead of underpaying employees.

Does this not mean those employees are out of work? Benefit some lucky workers with increased wages, while driving others out of work entirely? We're talking about doubling the national minimum wage. That's a hefty increase, especially for areas where cost of living is quite a bit different than say, California.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#615

Post by zjaffee » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

knightofmars wrote: post #140

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did Amazon actually pay any worse or have worse working conditions than any other unskilled warehouse job? I'm not sure, but I think most places are OK with bathroom breaks. I could be wrong, though. If so, why didn't the employees change jobs? See, this is much more difficult. If the Amazon warehouse pays more than other jobs around - even if the pay is still low - it makes it much more difficult to leave the job. Y…

"I'm not sure it is fully capitalism's fault..." I agree. The problem here isn't capitalism. I also don't think it's lack of laws, it might be the opposite. People being abused by corporations who have manipulated laws in order to favor the corporations. Things such as "forced arbitration clauses", "anti-union legislation", and "non-compete clauses" are meant to strip the power away from workers. That we blame any ec…

Per marxist theory (so take this how you will), modern societies can either be dictatorships of the proletariat or of the bourgeoisie. Capitalism as an economic system is inherently a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, where laws will always be created to favor the interests of those with capital rather than workers. A market driven economy isn't inherently capitalism, as markets existed before capitalism and certainly played a factor in the central planning organizations of many socialist governments.

Any concessions to this only come from fear that the bourgeoisie would lose further power, which explains why the rich historically supported the expansion of the middle class as it created a buffer between their interests and the interests of laborers, and would explain why Jeff Bezos would support a living wage now as without it there is an increased risk of having to make further concessions down the line.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#616

Post by fabricexpert » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 6:13 PM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #592

phil248 wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you, as a company, can't exchange full time work for an amount of money that keeps an individual out of poverty, you're forcing the rest of society to cover the difference. That's not a deal any government, or any taxpayers, should want to be a part of. I don't want my taxes subsidizing profitable corporations because they can find people willing to work for sub-poverty wages who fill in the gaps using the welfare…

But isn't using welfare to fill in the gaps the most efficient solution? A well functioning market drives down the cost of goods and services to the minimum possible price, provided there's adequate competition. Commoditization is a good thing. The fact that bread and milk only cost a few dollars is net-good for society. Commoditization of labor should, thus, also be similarly good for society. At the end of the day,…

That's not what actually happens though. The rich avoid the tax and push for tax reduction and the poor don't get the welfare they need.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#617

Post by knightofmars » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

knightofmars wrote: post #140

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did Amazon actually pay any worse or have worse working conditions than any other unskilled warehouse job? I'm not sure, but I think most places are OK with bathroom breaks. I could be wrong, though. If so, why didn't the employees change jobs? See, this is much more difficult. If the Amazon warehouse pays more than other jobs around - even if the pay is still low - it makes it much more difficult to leave the job. Y…

"I'm not sure it is fully capitalism's fault..." I agree. The problem here isn't capitalism. I also don't think it's lack of laws, it might be the opposite. People being abused by corporations who have manipulated laws in order to favor the corporations. Things such as "forced arbitration clauses", "anti-union legislation", and "non-compete clauses" are meant to strip the power away from workers. That we blame any ec…

https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/courts/supreme-court-in-e...

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#618

Post by smilbandit » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 6:16 PM UTC

rubidium wrote: post #491

There's been similar moves in the past. Most famous of which is Ford's $5 / day. http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2014/01/03/blogs/post-per... Ford's quote from the time is relevant today: “The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers.…

and thus grew the middle class. The middle class is something we truly need to focus on growing again.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#619

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 6:17 PM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #84

czep wrote: post #47

Opponents of the minimum wage argue that it reduces employment by creating an artificial floor on wages, that jobs are lost because employers can't afford to pay the minimum. But if you can't pay the minimum, then you didn't really have a job to offer in the first place! By extension of this logic, employers could argue that they are losing jobs because they can only afford to pay someone who will work 12 hours a day…

> If you can't pay a basic living wage, for fair hours, in safe conditions, with necessary medical benefits, then you don't have a job to offer. Why not let the employees decide if the job is worth taking? If there exists people willing to voluntarily take a job given its wage/conditions, you have a job to offer.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#620

Post by maym86 » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 6:17 PM UTC

Jeff Bezos in the announcement. “We’re excited about this change and encourage our competitors and other large employers to join us"

Is this an attempt to pressure its competition with less money in the bank to do the same, loby for a higher minimum wage and drive them out of business?

Maybe it's a reaction to the union organizing taking place a whole foods and they think this will be cheaper in the long run.

I don't buy the "automation is just around the corner so we can afford to raise wages for a smaller workforce" argument I've seen here because that remains the same even if they kept the wages at the same level.

Happy with the result but I'm curious what the motives are. Bezos wouldn't do this unless he saw a benefit for the business or his hand was being forced somehow.