Google DeepMind Founder Demis Hassabis: Three Truths about AI • Hacker News Board

Re: Google DeepMind Founder Demis Hassabis: Three Truths about AI

#101

Post by glitchc » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #88

glitchc wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's play with that notion for a bit: If technology is a tool, let's say akin to a spade. A spade gets you into a hole. Will more spades ever get you out of a hole? Sounds like you need a ladder instead.

Technology is all the tools. With a spade you got into a hole. With a ladder you'll climb out of it. Hopefully with treasure. Then that spade might help you fill the hole back in. Particular technologies are highly intertwined - both directly and causally - so you can't really micromanage this. You have to push for technological develoment as a whole, and trim developments here, encourage there. For instance, we woul…

I think that's what you need to realize. Technology is only one kind of tool in our toolbox for shaping humanity. Other tools include:

- Policy: With regards to technology, who's in charge, how we use it.

- Laws: How do we protect vulnerable (defenseless) people from the negative repercussions of technology.

- Philosophy: How we think about things, treat other humans, our environment.

And I'm saying all of this as a technophile. The same tool that got you into the hole is likely not the tool that will be useful for getting you out.

Re: Google DeepMind Founder Demis Hassabis: Three Truths about AI

#102

Post by glitchc » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 5:26 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #87

glitchc wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's play with that notion for a bit: If technology is a tool, let's say akin to a spade. A spade gets you into a hole. Will more spades ever get you out of a hole? Sounds like you need a ladder instead.

I think your argument too simplified to be applicable to reality. What would the ladder be in your analogy? A dramatic reduction in population and a return to pre-industrial subsistence farming?

Those are all policy solutions, and they come about when policy is used as a tool. I'm actually not advocating these particular solutions, just the use of policy as a tool, a different one, from technology.

Re: Google DeepMind Founder Demis Hassabis: Three Truths about AI

#103

Post by mattnewport » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 5:30 PM UTC

cpeterso wrote: post #82

mattnewport wrote: post #42

What I'm most excited for is Demis using his AI to finally finish his Infinite Polygon Engine. I expect he'll get to that right after solving mass inequality and creating world peace.

What is the Infinite Polygon Engine?

Before Demis Hassabis was a master of AI hype he was a master of video game hype. The misleadingly named Infinite Polygon engine was one over hyped aspect of the over hyped and much delayed game Republic the Revolution. I think it actually turned out an ok game but is a notorious example of over promising and under delivering in the games industry.

Re: Google DeepMind Founder Demis Hassabis: Three Truths about AI

#104

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

glitchc wrote: post #101

TeMPOraL wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology is all the tools. With a spade you got into a hole. With a ladder you'll climb out of it. Hopefully with treasure. Then that spade might help you fill the hole back in. Particular technologies are highly intertwined - both directly and causally - so you can't really micromanage this. You have to push for technological develoment as a whole, and trim developments here, encourage there. For instance, we woul…

I think that's what you need to realize. Technology is only one kind of tool in our toolbox for shaping humanity. Other tools include: - Policy: With regards to technology, who's in charge, how we use it. - Laws: How do we protect vulnerable (defenseless) people from the negative repercussions of technology. - Philosophy: How we think about things, treat other humans, our environment. And I'm saying all of this as a…

The tools you mention are also intertwined, with technology in particular being in the driver seat of changes in the other areas you mention. Therefore, it'll still be a necessary component of the solution, even if it won't be the only one.

Re: Google DeepMind Founder Demis Hassabis: Three Truths about AI

#105

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

glitchc wrote: post #102

adrianN wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your argument too simplified to be applicable to reality. What would the ladder be in your analogy? A dramatic reduction in population and a return to pre-industrial subsistence farming?

Those are all policy solutions, and they come about when policy is used as a tool. I'm actually not advocating these particular solutions, just the use of policy as a tool, a different one, from technology.

Policies are usually feasible only as much as technology of the day allows it; try to go beyond what's technologically supported, and it'll either be impossible, or you'll have to force people at gunpoint.

Re: Google DeepMind Founder Demis Hassabis: Three Truths about AI

#106

Post by empath75 » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 5:43 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #2

To be honest, I can't really understand how come there are still people who, when confronted to a world that has been irremediably changed by humans' use of technology (for worst, they say) still believe that an improved technology used by the same humans will make things better. I'm looking at these quotes from the article: > The reason I say that is that if you look at the challenges that confront society: climate…

> Either we need an exponential improvement in human behavior — less selfishness, less short-termism, more collaboration, more generosity — or we need an exponential improvement in technology.

This isn't implying that he believes technology _will_ make it better. He's only saying that we have 3 choices: Better technology, better human behavior, or environmental catastrophe.

Whether or not the first is even possible is an open question.

Re: Google DeepMind Founder Demis Hassabis: Three Truths about AI

#107

Post by vinayms » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 5:51 PM UTC

This seems to be a bit of oversell, similar to how a gifted musician might declare that music can cure all diseases, including cancer.

We must take care to ensure that AI doesn't end up atrophying intelligence of humans, and make us its slave, like how technology seems to be doing. I mean, look at how people have lost capacity to do basic maths mentally, or follow a route based on landmarks only. Technology is useful as long as its our slave, like the slide rule or the compass. Same goes for AI.

The combinatorial example about chemical compounds is poor because, if anything, it only reflects the imperfect methodology adopted rather than something inherently insurmountable. May be they need more insight to help prune the irrelevant combinations, and actually act like scientists instead of tinkering inventors. If scientists rely on technology or AI to solve these sort of problems, either through brute force or clever algorithms, instead of engaging their intelligence, it would begin the deterioration of humanity as a whole. Though most of the significant scientific discoveries have been accidental, our progress has been due to application of our minds to understanding and harnessing them. Same goes for evolution of society due to philosophy. AI induced atrophied intelligence will push us back to the dark ages, only this time the god would be the AI, the oracles would be the software, and the heretics would be those propounding reliance on innate human intelligence.

Its ironic that a bunch of brilliant scientists creating a brilliant system, on par with human mind, risks destroying the collective brilliance of humans. We must tread carefully.

Re: Google DeepMind Founder Demis Hassabis: Three Truths about AI

#108

Post by ThomPete » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #98

ThomPete wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some future generation is going to go extinct whether by astroid, super nova or end of the universe. The idea that the coming generations are more important than the current is frankly the most unemphatic thing I have heard in a long time.

> The idea that the coming generations are more important than the current is frankly the most unemphatic thing I have heard in a long time. You're right. We should definitely continue with the status quo of stuffing our fat faces with slop and burning oil like there's no tomorrow, literally.

If you take a couple of steps back and think about this idea that future generations are more important than current ones you would probably realize that it's not such a simple thing to conclude on.

I never said we shouldn't do anything. What I said is that the idea of simply using the well being of the future generations as an argument for how the current generations should behave isn't empathic.

We should do a lot of course among others keep developing new technologies to solve some of the problems that humans create while still allowing the many millions who are poor improve their lives too.

That is the paradoxical discussion here and it's frankly way more important than some strawman about not doing anything here.

Re: Google DeepMind Founder Demis Hassabis: Three Truths about AI

#109

Post by ThomPete » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 5:55 PM UTC

CharlesW wrote: post #74

ThomPete wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans have had to deal with climate change for all our existence and to think that the only problem with regards to the climate is human-made illustrates how absurd the discussion have become. The biggest opportunity to solve, whatever affect humans have is through technological progress, not beliving humans basic instinct and behavior is somehow going to change. Humans are both rational and irrational, mostly irrat…

> Humans have had to deal with climate change for all our existence… Not like this: https://xkcd.com/1732/

Compared to where they were technologically it's not that far off.

Nature doesn't give us a safe environment we make unsafe, it gives us an unsafe and hostile environment we try to make safe. Yes, that has consequences, consequences that aren't solved by wishing we were more rational.

Re: Google DeepMind Founder Demis Hassabis: Three Truths about AI

#110

Post by glitchc » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 5:59 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #104

glitchc wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's what you need to realize. Technology is only one kind of tool in our toolbox for shaping humanity. Other tools include: - Policy: With regards to technology, who's in charge, how we use it. - Laws: How do we protect vulnerable (defenseless) people from the negative repercussions of technology. - Philosophy: How we think about things, treat other humans, our environment. And I'm saying all of this as a…

The tools you mention are also intertwined, with technology in particular being in the driver seat of changes in the other areas you mention. Therefore, it'll still be a necessary component of the solution, even if it won't be the only one.

I firmly disagree. While technology is certainly an enabler, either to implement the solution or to enforce it of a particular solution, it is not the tool from which the solution must be derived. The intertwining that you envision emerges when decision-making bodies look at a particular technology and decide how it should influence humanity.