Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#371

Post by gowld » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:25 PM UTC

samirillian wrote: post #187

ajross wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they'll get to look progressive for adopting this wage early, while mitigating their competitive disadvantage by forcing every other company to raise their wages too eventually. That's deeply cynical. In the process, they're actually paying real people more money. Which is sort of critically important if you care about this issue and not just taking pot shots at Amazon on HN.

Cynical isn't the right word for the problem in swebs reasoning. Of course Bezos is a villain. But if you get Amazon to do this, it's good for the country, regardless of motivation. So remain cynical but recognize that good politics can lead to bad companies doing good things.

If Bezos is a villain, his millions of customers are accomplices. Have you tipped your Amazon warehouse worker recently?

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#372

Post by mrfredward » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:25 PM UTC

czep wrote: post #276

driverdan wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can't pay a basic living wage Stop right there. What about people who don't need a basic living wage, like students who still live with their parents? Why should they be pushed out of the market? I worked in high school, starting when I was 16. It was minimum wage. Without that job I wouldn't have been able to afford a car (necessary where I lived), travel to Greece and Italy, and have my own spending money.…

You raise an interesting point, but I am honestly more concerned with people who would otherwise starve or be homeless rather than students who would not be able to backpack around Europe for a summer. Minimum wage (and other worker protections) are aimed at protecting those who literally have no other options. > Why should people like you have the right to tell people like me that we can't willingly work? This isn't…

>I am honestly more concerned with people who would otherwise starve or be homeless rather than students who would not be able to backpack around Europe for a summer.

Okay, I worked part time from the end of high school through college. I didn't go backpacking, I just graduated with a smaller student loan balance. Is that a noble enough goal for it to matter if jobs are available?

My general feeling is that if people want jobs and can't find them, that's an economic problem worth considering, even if they'll have food without it.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#373

Post by juli1pb » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

pkulak wrote: post #286

L_Rahman wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the topic in question is how one of the most powerful companies on Earth chooses to use its power we should strive to always be this cynical. Skepticism of concentrated power is the ur-American political belief. We seem to have forgotten that lately.

If you're willing to shame a company for behavior you don't like, I think you should be prepared to give praise when they do exactly what you just asked for. When you constantly move the goal posts just so that you never have to abandon your righteous anger for even one day, what kind of incentive does that give companies to change their behavior?

Thank you for your message. This is not being cynic or critical. Real critic also praise when there is progress. In the present case this is just a hater. Hater are gonna hate, no matter what.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#374

Post by gowld » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

lgeorget wrote: post #244

Shivetya wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour will push a lot of people out of being employable. There is a greater tolerance for whom you will accept at current wage points. The other effect of a much higher starting wage is you will have people enter the market who did not think the wage was worth their time. The people who cannot be relied on to show up on schedule, quit and want to come back, have some issues in their credit or criminal backgroun…

> $15 an hour will push a lot of people out of being employable. On the other hand, isn't it illogical in a free market economy that wages do not increase at a rate at least equal to the inflation? How do you keep the economy running if people have less and less purchase power as time goes by? (These are genuine questions, I'm not an economist at all.)

It's not illogical at all. Wages and inflation are not dependent on each other. Inflation means money supply is growing faster than productivity, but it doesn't mean wage-earners are getting that extra money. Banks and capitalists might be.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#375

Post by solipsism » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #336

meko wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies don't really deserve praise, practically ever because their motives are ultimately guided by profits. They only act in the interest of revenue. Sometimes those interests align with the employees, but let's not pretend this isn't self preservation on amazon's behalf.

Companies don't really deserve praise, practically ever because their motives are ultimately guided by profits. That's not actually true.. it's a caricatured straw-man argument, usually employed by people who want to attack Capitalism in the general sense. Of course companies have to make a profit to survive; but not all companies ruthlessly optimize every single variable to squeeze out the last $0.0000001 of profit,…

Don't know why you're being downvoted. Since the 70s people have been throwing around this "corporations must ruthlessly pursue profit and profit alone" idea as is it's a truism. It's not even close to true, neither as normatively or empirically.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#376

Post by loceng » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

swebs wrote: post #17

>In addition, the company also pledges its public policy team will lobby for an increase to the federal minimum wage from $7.25 — it doesn’t identify a specific wage that it’s targeting, but instead says, “We believe $7.25 is too low. We would look to Congress to decide the parameters of a new, higher federal minimum wage.” I'm going to take a wild guess and assume it will be $15/hour. That way they'll get to look pr…

The problem is that minimum wage shouldn't be the end of the conversation. With an increase with minimum wage, rent and other costs will go up to match whatever pressure people will as near as sustainable without collapse as possible (indirect costs going up of course), along with other for-profit layers providing for basic necessities also increasing their prices.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#377

Post by merpnderp » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

czep wrote: post #47

Opponents of the minimum wage argue that it reduces employment by creating an artificial floor on wages, that jobs are lost because employers can't afford to pay the minimum. But if you can't pay the minimum, then you didn't really have a job to offer in the first place! By extension of this logic, employers could argue that they are losing jobs because they can only afford to pay someone who will work 12 hours a day…

If someone is willing to work for $5/hour, I can't pay them $5/hour, even if that's all I can afford. Not all jobs should have to pay a basic living wage for two reasons. Not all jobs create enough wealth to justify that wage, and there are lots of people looking for side work, or just a bit of extra cash, and aren't relying upon this type of job for their living.

A 12 year old running a paper delivery route on their bike doesn't need $15/hour and isn't creating $15/hour in wealth, yet the kid and the employer would be happy to agree on some lesser amount.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#378

Post by mmmbetternot » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:29 PM UTC

bufferoverflow wrote: post #230

jacquesm wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between everybody being 'rich' and simply paying a living wage. Note how Ford got as big as it was in part not just because he made a damn good automobile but because he paid his employees a wage large enough that they could afford a car. A couple of billionaires less and a higher standard of living for the masses is a good thing.

Define "living wage". Please be specific, no vague dancing around.

a living wage is the minimum a person needs to survive without severe and persistent food and housing insecurity.

It's the amount one would spend on groceries, rent, utilities, transportation, childcare, and sometimes healthcare.

It does not include luxuries such as meals at restaurants, entertainment, savings accounts, retirement funds, investments, or vacations.

MIT has a great living wage calculator for the US. Their definition of living wage is in the about section.

http://livingwage.mit.edu/

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#379

Post by garettmd » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:30 PM UTC

pkulak wrote: post #286

L_Rahman wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the topic in question is how one of the most powerful companies on Earth chooses to use its power we should strive to always be this cynical. Skepticism of concentrated power is the ur-American political belief. We seem to have forgotten that lately.

If you're willing to shame a company for behavior you don't like, I think you should be prepared to give praise when they do exactly what you just asked for. When you constantly move the goal posts just so that you never have to abandon your righteous anger for even one day, what kind of incentive does that give companies to change their behavior?

Isn't "constantly moving the goal posts" the name of the game in capitalism? Good on Amazon for increasing their minimum wage, but why shouldn't it also be met with a healthy amount of skepticism. Companies definitely do things for the common good (I don't see much competitive advantage gained from going 100% renewable energy - a common move for many tech companies - apart from maybe attracting better/more employees) but it would be naïve to think that most decisions a company makes don’t intend to better their market position in some way or another.

Amazon (and all companies) spend most of their time/resources figuring out how to make more money and gain more power; I think it's appropriate that we as consumers, in turn, spend our time demanding more of them in terms of both value delivered and net benefit to society.

I don’t think Amazon deserves much sympathy. They're one of the most powerful companies in the world, have made a small group of people very rich while continuing to treat employees poorly. It's great that they're making this move but I don’t think we as consumers/citizens should be merely satisfied with it.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#380

Post by prolikewh0a » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:31 PM UTC

irishcoffee wrote: post #362

prolikewh0a wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're out of touch with the job market and reality itself. It's not easy for these people to just "get a new job". They get paid minimum wage and are probably living paycheck to paycheck. If these people just "move jobs", they're out a paycheck for weeks and may lose their car, their home, not be able to eat, etc.

> If these people just "move jobs", they're out a paycheck for weeks and may lose their car, their home, not be able to eat, etc. This gets floated around a lot. At least in the US I can't imagine a scenario where not paying bills for 1 or 2 months results in homelessness and a repo'd car. Being both a homeowner and a landlord, I could not pay my mortgage for a year before legal processes kick in, and if my tenants d…

>This gets floated around a lot. At least in the US I can't imagine a scenario where not paying bills for 1 or 2 months results in homelessness and a repo'd car.

>Being both a homeowner and a landlord

You're in a totally different economic situation, and probably have little to no economic struggles at all. I'll call this out of touch as well.