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Vigilante engineer stops Waymo from patenting key lidar technology

arstechnica.com

111–120 of 156 posts

Re: Vigilante engineer stops Waymo from patenting key lidar technology

#111

Although some engineers may disagree, this is one of the reasons I believe engineering should NOT be a protected industry/profession. Fine if the title was but not the action of doing it. I read a story about someone showing flaws in a USA traffic light system and he was subsequently fined for "illegal engineering" which is the most idiotic thing ever. Going on current USA progression it won't be long before you get…

That case is a little out there, I've never met an non-pe engineer that has ever gotten in trouble for doing engineering. I think PE certifications are fine in cases where there is one guy having the final say on a massive project that could kill someone if it fails. If my calculator app crashes, no one is going to be crushed to death. I think software and electrical engineering is a little bit different compared to a mechanical or civil engineer that is designing buildings and superstructures. For one, software and hardware is something you can constantly test and redesign for relatively little cost. You can come out with a product that just works and works well. Even if you are producing software and hardware that goes into lifesaving equipment, you can still perform tests on the final product to make sure it conforms. Once you build that bridge, its up there. You can't refactor it and come out with a new version if a strut fails. And because your design is in the public, the county/state/country is going to make sure you do it right. Too many people have been hurt by shoddy buildings in the lifetime of humanity to ignore modern safety code. There should be no reason why having a licensed professional engineer is a bad thing for anyone except those not good enough to beat the exam or those too cheap to hire one.

I really don't see anything to suggests that "illegal engineering" is a trend. I don't think that discussing engineering topics should be illegal but you should be fined for lying about being a PE just as you would by saying you are a medical doctor when you really aren't.

Re: Vigilante engineer stops Waymo from patenting key lidar technology

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I am pretty good friends with a civil engineer that did something almost exactly like this for a friend of his. He did this in his spare time and having no prior experience with the niche industry and law his friend's company operated in (botanical health supplements). The people from the federal government involved in the complaint did not believe he wasn't a specialized lawyer with a team of assistants. D…

if a dedicated civil engineer can pick up some law books and make it seem he was some high powered lawyer team, can a dedicated lawyer pick up some engineering books and build a bridge that can survive SF's 'Big One'?

The two are not equivalent. A patent application is something a patent attorney will make hundreds of in a career. A bridge that can survive the big one is something a team of engineers would do a few times in their career (treating it as a unit). There are multiple orders of magnitude in difference between the two.

I can tell you from witnessed experience that a "car engineer" can custom design a house, do most of the code-related work himself, and pass all relevant inspections on the first try (with flying colors and compliments from the inspector), which seems much closer in scope.

Re: Vigilante engineer stops Waymo from patenting key lidar technology

#113
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would require someone to pay the US patent office to do their jobs. I believe paying for government services is considered a contentious issue in the USA.

> A quick review of the budget and supporting Commerce Department Appendix suggests the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) has received everything it requested ($3,586,193,000), and will not suffer the indignity of fee diversion... https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2017/05/23/uspto-3-6-billion-pres... more about the fee diversion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Patent_and_Trade... The USPTO isn't…

USPTO processed >600K patent applications in 2015 [1]. I assume more recent years are similar. Looking over their fee schedule they probably bring in around ~$1-2K per patent application. I'll be generous at $2K.

So they have ~3.5B + 1.2B in revenue. This allocates on avg So an examiner has on avg ~25 hours to evaluate a possibly lengthy, complex, specialized document that often took a team many months to prepare.

That's not very much time to do the job people want them to do. The limiting factor is money.

[1] https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/h_counts.h...

Re: Vigilante engineer stops Waymo from patenting key lidar technology

#114
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, I'm being absolutely cynical and tongue-in-cheek here, but my understanding about the modern law is that lawyers aren't fighting for the "truth" or "common good" nor they are in the "righting wrongs" business. Their only job is doing whatever the client wants done. A _good lawyer_ wins a case even when it's total bollocks. The fact that it is bollocks is not a concern at any level. https://youtu.be/oYj7q_by_2E?t…

This is how adversarial justice systems are supposed to operate. The idea being that you get lawyers advocating in the best possible way for either side, so the argument is 'fair'. This is in comparison to an inquisitorial system, where one party is charged with investigating the case and exposing the 'truth'. This is more prone to bias and ability on that one party but it does generally mean that the level of resour…

Its a modern version of trial by combat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_combat). As always ,those who can buy a better combatant - win.

Re: Vigilante engineer stops Waymo from patenting key lidar technology

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone If you're going to argue against an assertion, you should include an argument.

The argument was implicit: he called it a conspiracy theory. A conspiracy theory is an explanation of an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy [...] without credible evidence . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

That's not an argument. You should look at the example in the wikipedia article I posted.

The poster formed an opinion based on observations and gave his reasons for doing so. If you disagree with his observations, the best way to do so is to provide your reasons for disagreeing with his analysis.

Re: Vigilante engineer stops Waymo from patenting key lidar technology

#116
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see yours and raise you this: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070244837 "System and method for extracting value from a portfolio of assets" - a.k.a. The process of being a patent troll is patented.

As an experiment I once applied for and received a patent on a faster-than-light communications system: https://patents.google.com/patent/US7126691B2/en The patent system is FUBAR.

And if anyone builds an FTL communication system based on your design, your rights will be protected.

Re: Vigilante engineer stops Waymo from patenting key lidar technology

#117

I have actually reviewed this man's supposedly vigilante's submission to the USPTO and it is clear that this story is not what it seems. The document is a highly professional 95+ page document of complex legal argumentation that only a law firm with a small team of lawyers with a lot of prior experience doing this could have put together. It contains lots of lawyer speak and contemporary argumentation that a lay pers…

I think this story does an injustice by calling him an 'engineer'. He cofounded Speedera Networks, which was acquired for $130m by Akamai after a 3-year patent battle, a battle he was on the front-line of and learnt a lot about patent infringement. Yes, he's an engineer, but he's also an engineer who knows more than the average engineer about patents and complex legal argumentation. Source: https://www.wired.com/stor…

It is not a deservice. Its indicative of how poorly we view our own profession that everyone with other skills must be more than engineer, merely by applying them.

A lawyer who becomes mayor is still a lawyer. A doctor who runs a phamacology company is still a doctor. And yes, and engineer who founds a company still retains the core skills and prestige of their hardwon profession.

Or at least, I think they should.

Re: Vigilante engineer stops Waymo from patenting key lidar technology

#118
post #7

I'm impressed that the random engineer was willing to put up $6k of his own money to challenge the patent, despite not benefiting from the decision in any way.

"Random engineer", or guy who sold a company for $130M after a patent-induced nightmare? https://www.wired.com/story/eric-swildens-uber-waymo-lawsuit...

He had at least 2 other cofounders, and the company had raised $50 Million from investors. He didn't get much of that $130 million.

Re: Vigilante engineer stops Waymo from patenting key lidar technology

#119
post #56

> He then spent $6,000 of his own money Who on earth has that kind of scratch just lying around to spend on something like this? I mean good for him for doing it but wow!!

If I read correctly correlated informations, the guy sold a company for 130 million dollars in the early 2000s (a story which also provided him with much needed experience in patents laws). If his only hobby in the meantime has been challenging patents, he probably can afford it !

We don't know how much of that he got to keep. The company raised $50 Million from investors (who need to get repaid), and there were other co-founders involved.

He said $6000 was "not a drop in the bucket" for him, so I guess he didn't get much of that.

Re: Vigilante engineer stops Waymo from patenting key lidar technology

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this story does an injustice by calling him an 'engineer'. He cofounded Speedera Networks, which was acquired for $130m by Akamai after a 3-year patent battle, a battle he was on the front-line of and learnt a lot about patent infringement. Yes, he's an engineer, but he's also an engineer who knows more than the average engineer about patents and complex legal argumentation. Source: https://www.wired.com/stor…

It is not a deservice. Its indicative of how poorly we view our own profession that everyone with other skills must be more than engineer, merely by applying them. A lawyer who becomes mayor is still a lawyer. A doctor who runs a phamacology company is still a doctor. And yes, and engineer who founds a company still retains the core skills and prestige of their hardwon profession. Or at least, I think they should.

Hardwon profession: Three weeks in a boot camp followed by two years on the bloody frontlines of the Framework Wars...
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