New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine • Hacker News Board

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#381

Post by mikeash » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

paradite wrote: post #234

yholio wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's true for all encryption and privacy technology, it has dual use. We as a society must find the right balance and say, ok, there's no reasonable justification for owning 1 pound of plutonium, but there is a legitimate case for high encryption and privacy. This forum largely believes that the balance struck by New Zealand - that you don't have the right to data privacy when traveling - is completely unaccept…

Let me ask you this hypothetical question instead: What if we have a "physical encryption" technology that allows encrypting physical objects so that X-ray scanners, drug detecting methods or metal detectors cannot see through them? Would customs be allowed to ask for the decryption key? Or should the customs just ignore whatever encrypted inside?

To make the analogy complete, it needs to include a global mail network that accepts these magic boxes and transports them almost instantaneously at almost no charge, so that you could trivially avoid any requirement to show customs what's inside by mailing your stuff to yourself after you get through.

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#382

Post by falcolas » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

zodiakzz wrote: post #358

jliptzin wrote: post #233

This happened to me driving from the US into Canada with my significant other on a short vacation. After some routine questioning, the agent asked for our phones and passwords. Naturally, I hesitated and wanted to know why he needed to go through our phones. He didn't give a reason, but said if I refuse they'd hold us until their forensics team cracks the phone password anyway. I wanted to make a bigger deal about it…

How can they possibly "crack" the phone password? Won't the phone get locked after a few failed tries?

It's border patrol speak for "keep your device indefinitely while refusing you entry and/or detaining you indefinitely". By attempting to cross the border you give them the right to do any of that.

Isn't border patrol (US, Canadian, pick a country, I'll wait) wonderful?

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#383

Post by Avamander » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:35 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #377

CodeMage wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just that a lot of us believe that we should educate people who think privacy has anything to do with whether you have anything to hide.

That can be done without unnecessarily vilifying people and turning it into a beat down.

Can you please elaborate why it's unnecessary to beat down attempts at compromising my privacy among other people's?

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#384

Post by reaperducer » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

sjroot wrote: post #106

yholio wrote: post #85

This is an important issue cryptographers and security minded people often overlook: the strongest cryptography is irrelevant if it opens you to such social harassment. What we need is practical cryptography. I have found practical success by booting from an encrypted Linux partition that has absolutely nothing relevant on it, with a weak password I can always enter when requested by big guys with guns. Unbeknown to…

Love this. Isn't there also something for Android that presents a "safe" account when you type in a particular passcode? This regulation is clearly made by people who don't understand the technology and capabilities of these devices. A waste of time and money; who is going to train customs officials to search through phones?

As cheap as burner phones are these days, it seems the easiest route is to buy a decoy Android and fill it with plausible-looking innocent data, and leave your real phone home when going on vacation.

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#385

Post by DoreenMichele » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

Avamander wrote: post #383

DoreenMichele wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That can be done without unnecessarily vilifying people and turning it into a beat down.

Can you please elaborate why it's unnecessary to beat down attempts at compromising my privacy among other people's?

It is possible to attack the idea without inadvertently attacking the person. All it would take is acknowledgement that he didn't intend it that way before noting "But it can go thus and such bad places."

You can espouse a zero tolerance policy for the idea of "I have nothing to hide" without making it a dreadful experience for the person who made the mistake of using that particular phrase while explaining why you think it is critical to try to kill off the phrase for all eternity.

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#386

Post by DougN7 » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #346

woofcat wrote: post #271

I recently had to go to America for a wedding, due to these types of policies I always go through my phone and clean almost everything out of there. Photos, logout of Google, clean up downloads, etc. I don't have anything to hide, however having some random customs dude go into Google Photos which has over a decade of my life documented doesn't seem exactly ideal.

People who have nothing to hide still shut their bathroom door. And besides, laws change. I have nothing to hide today; who knows in three months?

This is exactly right. The Jews in Germany probably thought they had nothing to hide before the Nazis came to power.

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#387

Post by tobib » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

jliptzin wrote: post #233

This happened to me driving from the US into Canada with my significant other on a short vacation. After some routine questioning, the agent asked for our phones and passwords. Naturally, I hesitated and wanted to know why he needed to go through our phones. He didn't give a reason, but said if I refuse they'd hold us until their forensics team cracks the phone password anyway. I wanted to make a bigger deal about it…

> He didn't give a reason, but said if I refuse they'd hold us until their forensics team cracks the phone password anyway

Is that realistic? Would they actually be able to "crack" the encryption of a modern iPhone or Android phone?

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#388

Post by yayana » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

tootahe45 wrote: post #225

jackhack wrote: post #4

It's troubling to watch one of the most amazing places on earth transform itself into a totalitarian purgatory. Access to physical phone/laptop is only the first step -- mark my words. Big Brother's bureaucrats are never satiated. Next, we will have demands for passwords and unrestricted access to : email, facebook, photo sharing, hacker news posts, social media, etc. I see sudden spike in the market for burner phone…

In the UK and NZ they're already looking to stop people from buying burner phones with cash.

Bringing a blank phone with you isn't really a problem, but getting a local SIM can be.

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#389

Post by ppppppaul » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

elhudy wrote: post #349

jliptzin wrote: post #233

This happened to me driving from the US into Canada with my significant other on a short vacation. After some routine questioning, the agent asked for our phones and passwords. Naturally, I hesitated and wanted to know why he needed to go through our phones. He didn't give a reason, but said if I refuse they'd hold us until their forensics team cracks the phone password anyway. I wanted to make a bigger deal about it…

I drove from Detroit to Toronto via Windsor, and was subjected to a vehicle search and questioning. I pulled up my hotel reservation at the agents' request, and he snatched my phone out of my hands and started going through my emails. He couldn't wrap his head around why anyone would want to take a roadtrip to toronto for an extended weekend, other than to run drugs. I've also been interrogated when flying into Canad…

I'm Canadian. I get searched all the time by both sides. Canadian side has been worse for me, so far.

I really like going to other countries, their customs tend to be reasonable. coming back home is always a nerve racking experience.

I haven't been asked for my phone yet, but have been asked for my camera.

I'm being drawn more and more to paying for online storage/sync solutions and clearing my phone and laptop before traveling to the USA or Canada. actually more worried about Canada.

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#390

Post by reaperducer » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

paradite wrote: post #154

yholio wrote: post #85

This is an important issue cryptographers and security minded people often overlook: the strongest cryptography is irrelevant if it opens you to such social harassment. What we need is practical cryptography. I have found practical success by booting from an encrypted Linux partition that has absolutely nothing relevant on it, with a weak password I can always enter when requested by big guys with guns. Unbeknown to…

To be very honest, I find the methodology very similar to what drug trafficker would do to hide their drugs. And I don't think this method will end well for all parties either way. If it works, customs officers cannot find actual illegal contents, and criminals walk free through customs. If customs officers somehow detects you are doing this, you risk obstructing security measures.

To be very honest, I find the methodology very similar to what drug trafficker would do to hide their drugs.

It's a shame that people now have to guard their privacy like drugs.