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New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

radionz.co.nz

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Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#251

Post by hugh-avherald »

daemin wrote: post #82
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm unaware of any country where you're entitled to require a court order before they can inspect your belongings when passing through a customs inspection I agree, but I think historical precedent with books and papers is different from our phones. Note that my process still defaults to allowing the agent a casual search. The traveller simply has the right to call foul and require the agent to produce their reason…

The key difference between searching someones suitcase and their phone is that people don't generally carry their medical and financial records in paper form when they travel.

Medical and financial records have always been legitimate things to search by customs. You may in fact be denied entry if you don't have them in paper form, in some cases.

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#252

Post by paradite »

jrockway wrote: post #178
WaylonKenning wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some material that can be stored on your phone is not permitted into New Zealand, like child pornography. If you had that stored in your suitcase, it can be discovered, and a prosecution started. If you had that stored in your phone, it can be discovered, and a prosecution started. Phones aren't magical parts of your brain, that can cross borders without being inspected. There's no digital 'diplomatic pouch'. Just be…

There is a digital diplomatic pouch though, it's called "the cloud". Anyone that wants to smuggle illegal bits and bytes into a country can simply do it over the Internet. The reality is, nothing on your phone can cause actual danger to anyone in the way that guns or a bomb can.

I find this cloud argument rather weak.

So you have two ways getting illegal contents into a country. Instead of preventing both measures (which is what governments are trying to do [1]), you are suggesting ignoring one of the ways because the other way currently works?

The whole point of the customs and laws is to prevent any sort of measures to getting illegal contents into the country, either physically or via the cloud. Just because it is currently possible to do it via the cloud, does not mean the customs should give up checking physical devices.

[1] http://time.com/5344265/3d-printed-guns-legal/

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#253

Post by hugh-avherald »

boobsbr wrote: post #51

> The updated law makes clear that travellers must provide access - whether that be a password, pin-code or fingerprint - but officials would need to have a reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing. Does the Law in NZ have any provisions against self-incrimination? The US has the 5th Amendment, some countries in the Americas signed the American Convention on Human Rights. How does NZ deal with this issue? Can't it be consi…

The law specifically says self-incrimination is not a reasonable excuse.

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#254

Post by yholio »

paradite wrote: post #234
yholio wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's true for all encryption and privacy technology, it has dual use. We as a society must find the right balance and say, ok, there's no reasonable justification for owning 1 pound of plutonium, but there is a legitimate case for high encryption and privacy. This forum largely believes that the balance struck by New Zealand - that you don't have the right to data privacy when traveling - is completely unaccept…

Let me ask you this hypothetical question instead: What if we have a "physical encryption" technology that allows encrypting physical objects so that X-ray scanners, drug detecting methods or metal detectors cannot see through them? Would customs be allowed to ask for the decryption key? Or should the customs just ignore whatever encrypted inside?

There's no need to go to such wild hypotheticals if what you want to say is that you support border data searches - it's your right to have that political position. I simply have the opposite position.

Given some hypothetical new technology with vast societal implications, I would be forced to carefully reconsider that position, but in this case I believe privacy is a basic human right that does not simply disappear at the borders.

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#255

Post by lotsofpulp »

Freedom isn't free! Have to keep fighting for it. Or figure out / be lucky enough to become part of the ruling group.

Edit: I also find it funny when people get passionate about their "free" country's national anthems when they're one bad underpaid, undereducated border patrol agent away from not having any rights.

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#256

Post by hugh-avherald »

lolc wrote: post #143

I wonder ho such policies work when you're hauling a device for somebody else. "Oh sorry this is my husbands's phone. And that laptop? It's my daughter's." Or simply: "Oh my, I just got a new PIN and now I forgot it." Is it permissible to punish somebody for not knowing or for forgetting? And if not, who has the burden of proof? I find that these questions have no good answer. For this reason alone I regard laws that…

It's illegal to fail to answer truthfully. So saying 'I forget' (even if you have) is not a defence.

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#257

Post by wild_preference »

Happened to a female friend flying from Toronto to visit me in Mexico. Because she had a connecting flight in US, a US agent went through her phone. (Classic mistake of entering the US unless absolutely neccessary)

Guy was reading her Tinder messages and accusing her of being a prostitute. He brought up some saucy messages and would say things like “girls don’t do this kind of stuff for free...” Finally handed her back her phone with a comment like “well, maybe you are a good girl ;)”

He was fixated on some message where she commented how much a meal might cost at some restaurant and used that as an excuse to ask personal questions about sex and prostitution.

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#258

Post by capdeck »

r1ch wrote: post #111

I don't know how others feel, but if I kept control of the device I would feel much more comfortable with this process. The fact that they can make me unlock the device then take it out of my sight and do unknown things to it means I can no longer trust the device or any of its files (eg private keys, access tokens, etc that may be stored on it). If they sit down with me and allow me to maintain control of the device…

But then it doesn't make any difference -- they'll tell you to do what they'll do anyway. And if you refuse -- the same punishment applies (fee, prison, etc...)

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#259

Post by capdeck »

So, if you have lastpass app on your device (or, for the example sake, some other password manager that allows local access to passwords) can they ask you for the password to lastpass?

Also, the device is in "plane mode", but they will read your facebook password from lastpass and off they go on _their_ desktop computer -- looking at your FB profile, history, etc...

Re: New Zealand travellers refusing digital search now face $5k Customs fine

#260

Post by peeters »

Shank wrote: post #78
davezatch wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil’s advocate: what _is_ wrong with that logic? If we accept that customs can search our persons or luggage as a condition of our entering a given country, what is it about digital materials that makes them off limits?

I store information on my phone like my private thoughts, because I know that it’s an encrypted, secured device I always have with me. I wouldn’t store that information on paper — the best analogy is that it’s a backup of parts of my brain. When you go through customs, they can’t just search your brain. They can search your possessions, but they can’t mind dump you. That’s the critical distinction. It’s not my proper…

Are border agents allowed to read your diary? What if you put a simple lock on it?
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