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Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement with the Web [pdf]

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151–156 of 156 posts

Re: Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement with the Web [pdf]

#151
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, the question is: do we want more and more content concentrated into the hands of big players, eliminating little, independent publishers? Do we want this? Herein lies the catch: you have correctly and properly identified a potential side-effect. The question, I think, is this: how many users and how much privacy are we willing to sacrifice for this precious, wonderful, beloved, amazing side-effect? I know my an…

The danger of possible outlets for alternative voices controlled more and more by big corporations is at least as bad as the privacy implications. So there must be a tradeoff if we wan't privacy, but we also want to have publishing outlets independent of big corporations. There is currently no perfect solution where we can have total privacy and also little publishers can sustain themselves. I'm saying that we must f…

> The danger of possible outlets for alternative voices controlled more and more by big corporations is at least as bad as the privacy implications.

I understand why you feel that way. A diversity of voices is critically important for our society! These are the people who hold the powerful to account, who give voice to the voiceless. Their continued existence, as a group, are essential to a functioning modern democracy. We need to have them. You are absolutely, completely right about their importance!

> So there must be a tradeoff if we wan't privacy, but we also want to have publishing outlets independent of big corporations. There is currently no perfect solution where we can have total privacy and also little publishers can sustain themselves.

I understand why you believe this. At the same time, it strikes me as perhaps excessively entrenched in extant business models and takes on faith that there can be no other approaches.

Right now, I think you will find that a substantial portion of the public agrees with you. A balance, a set of tradeoffs, around privacy and online advertising can and must be found. The popular balance is likely to be the one of privacy first, and advertising just has to suck it up. Which, while a balance, is clearly not the one you want.

> Having 100% of one while giving up the other is not the answer.

I understand why you feel this way. Having a diversity of voices, large and small, independent and otherwise is very important! It's worth bearing in mind that not everyone is likely to want to be required to surrender their personal privacy for your notion of viewpoint diversity in publishers. After all, whatever balance is struck will apply to large corporations just as readily as small, scrappy, alternative, independent voices.

It's definitely worth considering that alternatives that do not set up a conflict between user privacy and revenue may be possible. There is genuine innovation going on in this area, as well as age-old subscription models - and people like me can and do have subscriptions. I, personally, maintain several.

As for those who don't adapt... well. My heart goes out to them. But my wallet does not.

Re: Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement with the Web [pdf]

#152
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, this was the premise of cable TV - pay for your cable, and in return you get no ads. Yet, here we are with ads on cable, because it turned out to be more profitable to both charge and show ads than just do one or the other.

> As I understand it, this was the premise of cable TV - pay for your cable, and in return you get no ads. No, that was never the case, it seems to be a myth that started getting repeated a lot in the last decade; at least, I've never heard of it before it started getting used as a “historical precedent” in discussing online advertising trends, despite is ahistoricity. What you originally paid for with cable was acce…

Fair enough, thanks for the correction.

Re: Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement with the Web [pdf]

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has already been tried and tested for a decade. Blendle is arguably the best version of it today and Google has the Contributor program. I put together a small team to create an adblocker/payment solution a few years ago that used a flat rate with payments proportional to engagement (combination of time and depth) per domain, similar to systems like Spotify (number of plays vs total). It failed because people fu…

Any system that relies on users paying out of their own pocket will definitely suffer low adoption. With Brave we setup a User Growth Pool of 300M Basic Attention Tokens. Each month we issue grants to users, which are in turn given to their favorite content creators and online properties (more than 20,000 verified to receive BAT, with more joining each day). But the UGP won't last forever, and users (generally) aren'…

The pay users to see ads thing has been going around in ad circles for a long time, but seems to be fundamentally misplaced. Advertisers at that point are paying more than they need to (to get the message to the user) and the results will be skewed (by people who are trying to make money) resulting in declining and inefficient performance. It also means the advertiser is trying to pay the user and hopefully get them to pay them back in return by purchasing their product, which leads to a broken cycle.

Re: Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement with the Web [pdf]

#154
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They publish a ton of stuff and are some of the biggest media properties on the Internet. Other publishers like the NYT or the BBC also do writeups of A/B tests and lessons, but they're such small fry I didn't want to mention them. And if 'page loads harm user retention' is worth publishing, 'ads harm user retention' definitely is and they are exactly the companies best placed to find that out.

We're just going in circles here. You asked about relevant experiments as a reply to comments about media publishers and ads. I'm telling you why you don't see that research as official papers. Google, Microsoft (Bing), and Yahoo are not considered media publishers because they are ad networks first. If you just dismiss actual media publishers like NYT and BBC as small fry (when they are some of the biggest) then I'm…

> I'm telling you why you don't see that research as official papers.

Which is a strange thing to claim since what you claim never happens, happens all the time with some of the largest media publishers in the world. Think of how many pages Google serves via AMP, or Yahoo's front page, or Google News, quite aside from their companies literally being based on advertising. If they are not media publishers who are doing experiments of the relevant sort, no one is and you are blatantly no-true-Scotsmanning.

There are large entities, better positioned than anyone else in the world to know, who run experiments constantly, and publish the results constantly.

So.

Where are they?

> they do not reveal their research because there's no time or incentive to reveal things like yield management, which is complex, audience specific, and contains competitive intel.

Congratulations, you have disproved the existence of hundreds or thousands of papers and blog posts. I must be hallucinating them all.

> That's why it can't be officially found, but you can get details if you talk to their dev teams.

Really? Then why, when I talk to them, I never hear any specifics, I always get told either they don't know or no one's checked, and only once in a blue moon do I hear something relevant (always without details)? Since you apparently talk to so many dev teams and they tell you all about the effects of ads on user retention and total traffic from the many experiments they run but never ever publish on, perhaps you could summarize them and provide the details for the rest of us.

Re: Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement with the Web [pdf]

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any system that relies on users paying out of their own pocket will definitely suffer low adoption. With Brave we setup a User Growth Pool of 300M Basic Attention Tokens. Each month we issue grants to users, which are in turn given to their favorite content creators and online properties (more than 20,000 verified to receive BAT, with more joining each day). But the UGP won't last forever, and users (generally) aren'…

The pay users to see ads thing has been going around in ad circles for a long time, but seems to be fundamentally misplaced. Advertisers at that point are paying more than they need to (to get the message to the user) and the results will be skewed (by people who are trying to make money) resulting in declining and inefficient performance. It also means the advertiser is trying to pay the user and hopefully get them…

Paying uses to see ads isn't the solution in and of itself; an increasing number of users are opting out of ads for safety reasons. Others for aesthetic reasons. The solution is multi-fold, and we realize this.

Brave's model creates a better system (consent-based) which protects the user's data (on their device, with no leaking), cuts out complexity (which reduces fraud and middle-men), and in turn is able to put lost revenue back in the hands of publishers. Beyond this, Brave is able to bring the user into the fold, as their attention is the commodity being bought.

There have been some exciting developments in this space before us, but none that stuck. While we laud those who came before us, we understand that the problem was never fully tackled. That's what we are doing with Brave.

Re: Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement with the Web [pdf]

#156
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're just going in circles here. You asked about relevant experiments as a reply to comments about media publishers and ads. I'm telling you why you don't see that research as official papers. Google, Microsoft (Bing), and Yahoo are not considered media publishers because they are ad networks first. If you just dismiss actual media publishers like NYT and BBC as small fry (when they are some of the biggest) then I'm…

> I'm telling you why you don't see that research as official papers. Which is a strange thing to claim since what you claim never happens, happens all the time with some of the largest media publishers in the world. Think of how many pages Google serves via AMP, or Yahoo's front page, or Google News, quite aside from their companies literally being based on advertising. If they are not media publishers who are doing…

>> If they are not media publishers... no one is

No, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo are not considered media publishers by any actual media publisher; because they are ad networks that do some news aggregation at best and do not produce original content. There absolutely is a definition that you are refusing to recognize for some reason.

>> There are large entities..., who run experiments constantly, and publish the results constantly. So. Where are they?

Again, what are you referring to here? The big companies are not publishers and what they do is closer to Amazon.com testing page speed rather than NYT testing ad load. Actual media publishers do not publish results constantly, if ever.

>> Congratulations, you have disproved the existence of hundreds or thousands of papers and blog posts. I must be hallucinating them all.

What? How are you asking about the lack of research and then saying there's research everywhere? Again, what are you talking about here? What media publisher* is printing heavy insights into their ad yield management?

>> ...when I talk to them, I never hear any specifics, I always get told either they don't know or no one's checked...

Because it's internal intel. Do you know anyone on the revenue team? They might be more open to details but won't know the technical background. You can look at trade publications like Digiday, Adweek, Mediapost, Adexchanger and others to find details and some rare whitepapers.

>> perhaps you could summarize them and provide the details for the rest of us.

You need to have specific questions, but here are some details:

Top sites are focused on revenue over UX. Sites have found equilibrium between ad load and retention with maximum time spent. Users rarely stop visiting sites, they just come back with adblockers instead, which has led to strategies like free articles per month and increased direct-sold campaigns and native ads from brand studios (for pubs that can afford a team). WSJ and other pubs have stopped the google-search free entry workaround as well.

UX changes include never-ending feeds and auto-changing articles to minimize bounces, along with less ad slots but more ad refreshes to increase total impressions. Tech-forward pubs like WaPo have built their own adtech stacks to show users different formats and ad frequencies depending on how they respond. Subscribers get less ads until churn is minimized. No ads for subs just leaves money on the table and even FT.com runs plenty of campaigns. Video has also invaded everything with 5x higher prices than banners.

Overall pubs have managed to squeeze out the same number of impressions from just the non-adblocked market, while optimizing paid conversions for adblockers and capitalizing on their uninterrupted attention to show more high-touch direct campaigns. Readership is up all around and both segments make more money than before.

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