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Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

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Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#191

Post by lovich »

renjimen wrote: post #177
zimablue wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that you have no way of proving that and it would be illegal for them to ask. What it actually does is leave you do the work/pay taxes for your colleagues reproduction holiday.

"Reproduction holiday". I can only assume you have never spent time around babies and small children. Holiday usually is the last word that springs to mind.

The guy thinks the one month is a generous amount of time to give a woman to recover from childbirth while taking of a baby at the same time. He seems adamant that people only take time off to relax and there's zero benefit to the child to having parents around. The arguments hes posting might hold more sway if he based them on the reality of having a child at all

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#192

Post by lovich »

rukittenme wrote: post #92

I'm surprised this has had such a good reception. Hobbling men in the name of equality is just bizarre. It's mixture of "Hansel and Gretel" and "Harrison Bergeron". Instead of weights just fatten them up with sweets. I didn't push a human being out from between my legs. Because of that I'm capable of working. I would like to be useful to my family. Working is one way I can do that. If I work while my wife is on leave…

It's not leave to just fuck off and do nothing. Taking care of a baby is an incredibly demanding task which is why most human societies we're built around having multiple generations of family, or other members of your tribe, helping with childcare. Foisting all of that onto a mother without any assistance is a relatively new thing in human history. If you took parental leave, most people would expect to be an actual parent to the child.

Beyond all of that, this change isn't about what the right level of child care is. It's about the fact that managers and companies discount women workers of child bearing age to a degree that they do not for men, because if a couple is having a child the woman is going to have to take some amount of time off. The suggestion from this article would be like adding an interface of IParent over the male and female classes, and having the employers make hiring/firing/promotion decisions based off of the interface rather than the concrete class. If you don't do this the two groups of people, men and women, will be treated differently based on the circumstances of their birth. As a culture we've made a value judgement that this sort of discrimination is a bad thing, so why would we not mitigate it?

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#193

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

amb23 wrote: post #167
curtis wrote: post #143

We're thinking about the problem all wrong. Clearly the way to close the wage gap is to get women to stop having kids. Of course I'm not serious, but then I personally don't care if there is a wage gap as long as it is not being caused by workplace discrimination against women. If instead it's the case that the wage gap is caused by women (disproportionately to men) making an informed choice to de-prioritize work in…

In a perfectly rational market, neither mother or father would disproportionately decide to make one choice or another to prioritize or de-prioritize work at the expense or benefit of raising children. Equal numbers of men would be making that same choice as women do. But that's not the case today. Despite all the hemming and hawing over the wage gap issue, it's clear where the wage gap comes from: childcare, childca…

> it's clear where the wage gap comes from: childcare, childcare, childcare.

I've decided recently, just now actually: I don't buy this.

Why would an employer discount a woman's value just because she may, at some point, take time off to care for a child?

Men also leave jobs. Shouldn't employers discount men's value because they may, at some point, leave?

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#194

Post by lovich »

zimablue wrote: post #145
jacquesm wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You now have 22 posts in this thread (and counting), it seems you are very much upset for having to pay for something that you do not feel that you benefit from. But if you consider that you too are a product of the societies that chose to support children and if you accept that once children are there it helps to have them well nourished, healthy and smart then maybe you'll come to the conclusion that your position…

Thanks for counting, if you'd read them you'd see that I've addressed your points already and you aren't moving the debate on. To reiterate though, supporting parents with a holiday is not the same as supporting children. My dad taking time off doesn't make me healthy, well nourished or smart. Healthy is healthcare, well nourished is money and only god can do smart. Immigration is an alternative to domestic populatio…

You are making a claim that I don't think has substance. You keep susbstituting "holiday" for "leave". It is not a holiday to take care of a baby, it's work. You are not going to be traveling to nice places or drinking it up. You'll be sleep deprived and busy the whole time because babies are incapable of taking care of themselves. You don't necessarily need to be dealing with the baby 24/7 but someone needs to be available to react to the babies needs or their suicidal tendencies of trying to touch/eat every dangerous thing they see.

Our current setup puts this entirely on the wife and leaves the husband out of it. Requiring paternal leave would both equalize make and female employees in the eyes of employers _and_ allow for the parents to provide care to the child without driving themselves into poor health or depression

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#195

Post by Smushman »

gumby wrote: post #46
Smushman wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the primary point of the article is that this flexible planning is not functioning as an equalizer in the workplace (Title: Want Equality? Make New Dads Stay Home...) and that it could, and should. To turn it into more direct phrasing; a woman has to take a significant chunk of time off during a pregnancy by virtue of the condition, and this has a net effect on her career. When a woman takes off for pregnancy…

> When a woman takes off for pregnancy it is known up front it is for several months, and she is also indisposed during that time (can't answer questions or take quick phone calls, because she is not able to perform at peak levels while convalescing). So wouldn't it be ideal for the mother's partner to be able to participate 24-7 to help her recover and to help both parents bond closely with the child? And not be exp…

My 'stereotype' is 2x real world experience.

I know for a fact pregnancy is hard on the body - my experience was nearly 12hrs delivery and my wife was in the ICU for 3 days following. It took months to recover completely.

In your rush to defend your personal 'stereotype'; I hope you understand that being able to message clients from the delivery room is unusual. No matter what your intent in saying this, never underestimate the serious nature of childbirth.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#196

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

I wrote this as a response to another comment, but I think it deserves a top level comment.

> it's clear where the wage gap comes from: childcare, childcare, childcare.

I've decided recently, just now actually: I don't buy this.

Why would an employer discount a woman's value just because she may, at some point, take time off to care for a child?

Men also leave jobs. Shouldn't employers discount men's value because they may, at some point, leave?

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#197

Post by tonyarkles »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #196

I wrote this as a response to another comment, but I think it deserves a top level comment. > it's clear where the wage gap comes from: childcare, childcare, childcare. I've decided recently, just now actually: I don't buy this. Why would an employer discount a woman's value just because she may, at some point, take time off to care for a child? Men also leave jobs. Shouldn't employers discount men's value because th…

I’m answering your question, but not accepting the premise that childcare isn’t the major cause. Also, I’m coming at this from a Canadian perspective, where we have paid maternity/paternity via the Employment Insurance system. Despite it being available to both parents, anecdotally it is predominantly use by the mother, although fathers do sometimes use it (and it’s shared, so both can use it at the same time, eg when the child first come home). While the employer doesn’t pay for the employee while they are on leave, the employer is responsible for ensuring that their job is materially still there when they come back. Someone can’t go on mat/pat leave and come back to discover that they’re no longer a software manager but rather a janitor. In the meantime, you have to find someone to replace them.

If you have two candidates, male and female, both are likely to have a number of risk factors: they’ll leave, they’ll seek raises, etc. But, to address your question, the woman also has some probability of having a child and taking mat leave. All other things equal (probability of other risks), the woman will likely have a higher overall risk, since she’s more likely to take mat leave.

That all being said, you’re not “allowed” to discriminate based on that. And, as a man, I’ve never experienced sexual discrimination as far as salary goes. But there’s an answer to your question as to why childcare could be the primary factor.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#198

Post by 08-15 »

rimliu wrote: post #109
Kiro wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lowering the birth rates is the number one thing we can do to save the planet so I see that as a positive thing.

Misanthropy should be looked down even more than misogyny because it’s hating twice as many people.

But misanthropy is unbiased, while misogyny is sexist.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#199

Post by hkai »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #193
amb23 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a perfectly rational market, neither mother or father would disproportionately decide to make one choice or another to prioritize or de-prioritize work at the expense or benefit of raising children. Equal numbers of men would be making that same choice as women do. But that's not the case today. Despite all the hemming and hawing over the wage gap issue, it's clear where the wage gap comes from: childcare, childca…

> it's clear where the wage gap comes from: childcare, childcare, childcare. I've decided recently, just now actually: I don't buy this. Why would an employer discount a woman's value just because she may, at some point, take time off to care for a child? Men also leave jobs. Shouldn't employers discount men's value because they may, at some point, leave?

I think the person you're replying to meant that men and women earn exactly the same salary, but childcare means that a person doesn't work or works small jobs part-time, meaning that their income goes down.

Employers do not pay women less just because they can have children one day. In fact, young women earn more, on average, than young men.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#200

Post by 08-15 »

contravariant wrote: post #35
vsviridov wrote: post #4

Nothing like a little enforcement for the public good /s

Eh, sometimes you need a little enforcement to escape the Nash equilibrium. Not sure this is the best example though.

Just stop telling people that pure greed is the same thing as rationality. Never forget, Nash was crazy, and he did not get a Nobel Prize.

Superrationality provides nicer solutions to classic problems like the Prisoners Dilemma, but superrationality "is not mainstream". (Economists don't get it.)

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