One Billion Apples’ Secret Sauce: Recipe for Apple Wireless Direct Link Protocol • Hacker News Board

Re: One Billion Apples’ Secret Sauce: Recipe for Apple Wireless Direct Link Protocol

#21

Post by MBCook » Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 5:22 PM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #14

rashkov wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is just one of those things that works so well. I was traveling recently and met some folks at a hostel. At the end of the trip we wanted to share our photos and videos with each other. Our hostel's internet connection consisted of a weak wifi access point, connected to weak satellite internet, with dozens of people vying with each other for the available bandwidth. One of us suggested AirDrop and we sent d…

I do wonder if there are patents on this, and if that has prevented other devices from adopting this kind of protocol? WiFi has always had AdHoc mode which enables two devices to directly communicate like they were on the same Ethernet link, and I've used it a few times for a similar use-case to yours. It seems AirDrop is just a layer on top of that which facilitates the configuration required, but otherwise it would…

AirDrop can also use BT. I think it decides based on file size? Either way I imagine BT is used to help negotiate everything instead of just connecting to dozens of random ad-hoc networks.

Aren’t many devices limited to one WiFi network (whether ad-hoc or infrastructure) at once? That would mean many devices couldn’t do this without breaking normal WiFi.

Re: One Billion Apples’ Secret Sauce: Recipe for Apple Wireless Direct Link Protocol

#22

Post by PaulHoule » Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

djoldman wrote: post #18

"We have found that AWDL connections do not feature any security mechanism. All action and data frames are sent in plain and without authentication. AWDL delegates security functions to the transport and application layer, e. g., AirDrop uses TLS 1.2. The approach appears to be an informed decision to implement application dependant[sic] policies: a device might be trusted for sending an image file via AirDrop, but n…

For that matter I don't like interference on the crowded WiFi bands.

It seems some creep uses AirDrop to send some lewds to somebody else on a plane every other week.

I want to know my mac is using my wired and wireless network the way I intend rather than degrading the performance of WiFi, Bluetooth, ZigBee, Z-Wave, and other protocols that keep piling into unlicensed airspace.

Re: One Billion Apples’ Secret Sauce: Recipe for Apple Wireless Direct Link Protocol

#23

Post by briandear » Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

natvert wrote: post #16

exabrial wrote: post #13

Man it would be great to have an Android implementation. I like my MacBook running osx but I don't like iPhone hardware

Or lack of real software ownership e.g. no root allowed!)

There is not a lot of software on my phone I would care about “owning.” I am not writing code on my phone; I am using it for routine tasks. I don’t have a need to dig into the internals and the “benefits” of doing that are overshadowed by the security risks.

Re: One Billion Apples’ Secret Sauce: Recipe for Apple Wireless Direct Link Protocol

#24

Post by Hello71 » Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 5:59 PM UTC

solarkraft wrote: post #20

userbinator wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wonder if there are patents on this, and if that has prevented other devices from adopting this kind of protocol? WiFi has always had AdHoc mode which enables two devices to directly communicate like they were on the same Ethernet link, and I've used it a few times for a similar use-case to yours. It seems AirDrop is just a layer on top of that which facilitates the configuration required, but otherwise it would…

Doesn't Ad hoc force you to disconnect from your current Access Point? I'm under the impression that this is not the case with Air Drop.

Most cards nowadays support at least one ad-hoc and one infrastructure connection. Sometimes they have to be on the same frequency though, but it certainly wouldn't be hard for Apple to just buy one that supports multiple frequencies.

Re: One Billion Apples’ Secret Sauce: Recipe for Apple Wireless Direct Link Protocol

#25

Post by MBCook » Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 6:07 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #22

djoldman wrote: post #18

"We have found that AWDL connections do not feature any security mechanism. All action and data frames are sent in plain and without authentication. AWDL delegates security functions to the transport and application layer, e. g., AirDrop uses TLS 1.2. The approach appears to be an informed decision to implement application dependant[sic] policies: a device might be trusted for sending an image file via AirDrop, but n…

For that matter I don't like interference on the crowded WiFi bands. It seems some creep uses AirDrop to send some lewds to somebody else on a plane every other week. I want to know my mac is using my wired and wireless network the way I intend rather than degrading the performance of WiFi, Bluetooth, ZigBee, Z-Wave, and other protocols that keep piling into unlicensed airspace.

What interference? It sounds like this is using vendor extensions to the 802.11 Wi-Fi standard.

I have no idea what the default for AirDrop is, I keep it open only for contacts. If it’s open by default everyone that’s crazy. Doesn’t sound like the kind of thing Apple would do today, although it wouldn’t surprise me if it was like that in the past.

Re: One Billion Apples’ Secret Sauce: Recipe for Apple Wireless Direct Link Protocol

#26

Post by kccqzy » Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 6:08 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #22

djoldman wrote: post #18

"We have found that AWDL connections do not feature any security mechanism. All action and data frames are sent in plain and without authentication. AWDL delegates security functions to the transport and application layer, e. g., AirDrop uses TLS 1.2. The approach appears to be an informed decision to implement application dependant[sic] policies: a device might be trusted for sending an image file via AirDrop, but n…

For that matter I don't like interference on the crowded WiFi bands. It seems some creep uses AirDrop to send some lewds to somebody else on a plane every other week. I want to know my mac is using my wired and wireless network the way I intend rather than degrading the performance of WiFi, Bluetooth, ZigBee, Z-Wave, and other protocols that keep piling into unlicensed airspace.

Sounds like you should just turn off AirDrop.

Re: One Billion Apples’ Secret Sauce: Recipe for Apple Wireless Direct Link Protocol

#27

Post by Spooky23 » Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

anonu wrote: post #11

ReverseCold wrote: post #3

Still waiting on an AirDrop client for non-Apple products. It works really well and is pretty convenient. Maybe this paper will help.

I've had the opposite experience with air drop... It's never worked for me even with a fair amount of tinkering. I end up just running an ssh server and scping stuff around...

It depends on the user community and when.

Some of the older devices don’t support it, or people aren’t signed into iCloud or have a problem with their sign-in.

Re: One Billion Apples’ Secret Sauce: Recipe for Apple Wireless Direct Link Protocol

#28

Post by jonknee » Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 6:21 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #22

djoldman wrote: post #18

"We have found that AWDL connections do not feature any security mechanism. All action and data frames are sent in plain and without authentication. AWDL delegates security functions to the transport and application layer, e. g., AirDrop uses TLS 1.2. The approach appears to be an informed decision to implement application dependant[sic] policies: a device might be trusted for sending an image file via AirDrop, but n…

For that matter I don't like interference on the crowded WiFi bands. It seems some creep uses AirDrop to send some lewds to somebody else on a plane every other week. I want to know my mac is using my wired and wireless network the way I intend rather than degrading the performance of WiFi, Bluetooth, ZigBee, Z-Wave, and other protocols that keep piling into unlicensed airspace.

> I want to know my mac is using my wired and wireless network the way I intend

Which it is, you can have AirDrop on or off and to accept connections from everyone or just your contacts. All modes have their uses.

Re: One Billion Apples’ Secret Sauce: Recipe for Apple Wireless Direct Link Protocol

#29

Post by on_and_off » Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 6:25 PM UTC

natvert wrote: post #16

exabrial wrote: post #13

Man it would be great to have an Android implementation. I like my MacBook running osx but I don't like iPhone hardware

Or lack of real software ownership e.g. no root allowed!)

I am not sure that's the best example ..

Not being able to install any software without Apple acting as the middleman is very concerning for both 3rd party devs and consumers.

But that should not be something that has anything to do with root.

FWIW, Android does this better : you do have a play store but you can also sideload any app. You just need to confirm that you know what you are doing and the play store can still scan these apps against known malware signatures.

Re: One Billion Apples’ Secret Sauce: Recipe for Apple Wireless Direct Link Protocol

#30

Post by matthewmacleod » Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 6:37 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #22

djoldman wrote: post #18

"We have found that AWDL connections do not feature any security mechanism. All action and data frames are sent in plain and without authentication. AWDL delegates security functions to the transport and application layer, e. g., AirDrop uses TLS 1.2. The approach appears to be an informed decision to implement application dependant[sic] policies: a device might be trusted for sending an image file via AirDrop, but n…

For that matter I don't like interference on the crowded WiFi bands. It seems some creep uses AirDrop to send some lewds to somebody else on a plane every other week. I want to know my mac is using my wired and wireless network the way I intend rather than degrading the performance of WiFi, Bluetooth, ZigBee, Z-Wave, and other protocols that keep piling into unlicensed airspace.

To be clear, this feature is standards-compliant WiFi. It uses standard 802.11 frames and leverages the vendor-specific features to allow custom payloads. It’s not “degrading the performance” of WiFi - it is WiFi.