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Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

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Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#61

Post by rayiner »

zimablue wrote: post #50
brighteyes wrote: post #17

It would have been a more interesting article had it also went into the downsides of this approach. One specific concern is that mandatory paternity leave may discourage men from becoming fathers, further decreasing the birth rate which is already quite low in many advanced economies. Another is that if taking paternity leave impacts men's careers, then in many cases both parents will suffer such an impact, further d…

The downside is that it forces people who don't want children to pay for other people's children, at a time when we should be trying to reduce the population and not increase it. Having children is not a public service, it's closer to pollution and I object so much to subsidising it.

I’m okay with not subsidizing having kids if kids in the future don’t have to pay social security, dividends, etc., for people who didn’t have kids.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#62

Post by TangoTrotFox »

was_boring wrote: post #25
brighteyes wrote: post #17

It would have been a more interesting article had it also went into the downsides of this approach. One specific concern is that mandatory paternity leave may discourage men from becoming fathers, further decreasing the birth rate which is already quite low in many advanced economies. Another is that if taking paternity leave impacts men's careers, then in many cases both parents will suffer such an impact, further d…

Arguably, decreasing human kind's birthrate is a net positive. Even in the absence of that, being a dad, and knowing many dads, we've already made the choice to "disadvantage" ourselves -- and wish we could do it more. What stops us is the fact that we would lose our jobs which disadvantages our kids. So I say bring on mandatory leave! The vast majority will be much happier.

One important tangent. There's a very significant nuance to birthrates you're not considering when it comes to reducing birthrates. Most of everybody knows birth rates in the developed world are decreasing, compared to the developing world. But what many do not know is that this sort of pattern holds true even within developed nations themselves. For instance in the US people who earn Think about what this means. The things that correlate strongly with fertility are: low income, low education, high religiosity. If you look at the pool of all children being born they're going to end up ever more disproportionately in low income, low education, highly religious households over higher income secular households in developed nations. I used to feel similarly to you, but in considering this the very people 'responsibly' choosing not to have children are the exact people that should be reproducing to no end if we want a better tomorrow for everybody. And this is without even considering genetic factors. Responsible fertility is, paradoxically, anything but responsible for those who would have the wherewithal to consider such things in the first place.

[1] - https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-fam...

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#63

Post by din9001 »

barrkel wrote: post #14

We western economies have to figure this out or we'll gradually depopulate, or live under fascist governments, or worse. Much of the gains of two-income parents goes into house prices to be closer to good schools - i.e. zero sum competition, while company incentives are to encourage people not to have children, or defer children until too late to maintain population, and essentially stopping the next generation of em…

What's with the downvoting here whenever someone dares to mention the actual situation in countries like Germany and the U.K.?

Are the limousine leftists unable to handle it? You can control it here, but not (yet) in the voting booth.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#64

Post by adimitrov »

zimablue wrote: post #50
brighteyes wrote: post #17

It would have been a more interesting article had it also went into the downsides of this approach. One specific concern is that mandatory paternity leave may discourage men from becoming fathers, further decreasing the birth rate which is already quite low in many advanced economies. Another is that if taking paternity leave impacts men's careers, then in many cases both parents will suffer such an impact, further d…

The downside is that it forces people who don't want children to pay for other people's children, at a time when we should be trying to reduce the population and not increase it. Having children is not a public service, it's closer to pollution and I object so much to subsidising it.

That's very short sighted. Population doesn't permeate the ether like a perfect gas, and we're not all indistinct like the molecules of such a gas.

Whether the current global population levels are unsustainable is up for debate. What is not up for debate, and is already apparent in Western nations as well as other booming economies such as China and Japan are the severe implications of demographic change and the disruptive effect of an aging population on a nation's economy.

This is why making babies in rich countries makes economic sense. If you want to fight overpopulation, then you need to fight for women's rights and education in countries where birth rates are too high. For every baby that you're not having, 20 others are born into poverty.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#65

Post by malvosenior »

patagonia wrote: post #54
oconnore wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant valuable in terms of what I was contributing to the family ... when I took 9 months of part-time paternity leave. I feel like you didn’t really think about what I was saying. All of this was the result of lots of planning and long discussions between the two of us about how we would take care of our son, and how this would affect each of our careers — you really don’t need to lecture me here.

Narrowing the wage gap is not about the family. It’s about the wage gap. It’s about women getting less pay for the same work. It’s about women. Not the family. I’m not lecturing you. And I’m not a woman.

Except it’s been proven over and over that there is no wage gap: https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy...

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#66

Post by jacquesm »

cimmanom wrote: post #60
jacquesm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And why should a woman who doesn't want children have to pay a penalty for the choices of those who do? For the same reason that men do. After all, society as a whole has decided for some reason that children are a good thing, and that the cost of having them should be born by all, even those without.

Except that right now women who don’t want children experience a hiring penalty that men who don’t want children (and even men who do want children) don’t experience - due to an assumption that any given woman will take parental leave that any given man won’t.

Yes, it is totally unfair and I do not know what to do about it.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#67

Post by zimablue »

Smushman wrote: post #22
oconnore wrote: post #7

This seems really heavy handed. In my experience what’s valuable for men is flexibility, not some set number of weeks you have 100% off. I (as a father) went back to work at Fivetran 4 weeks after my son was born, but at 20 hours a week. That allowed me to help my partner during the initial recovery, but also be the primary parent (with daycare) from ~4-9 months when she returned to traveling for work in consulting.…

I think the primary point of the article is that this flexible planning is not functioning as an equalizer in the workplace (Title: Want Equality? Make New Dads Stay Home...) and that it could, and should. To turn it into more direct phrasing; a woman has to take a significant chunk of time off during a pregnancy by virtue of the condition, and this has a net effect on her career. When a woman takes off for pregnancy…

But women don't have to have children, in fact it would be much better if they didn't. You write your post as if it's all miraculous conception.

Women can make a choice to do something that will impact their career negatively. Men don't have that choice.

People who don't intend to have children subsidising people who do (who are on average already richer and more privileged) is deeply messed up. This only makes sense from a very narrow middle class upper-echelon-gender-equality is the most important thing in society lense.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#68

Post by chriskanan »

In academia, some studies have shown than mandatory paternity leave may not close gaps in productivity:

The authors compared promotion rates before and after these gender-neutral parental policies were adopted, relative to trends in comparable institutions that did not alter their policies, while also accounting for an array of influences, like where each economist was trained. They found that men who took parental leave used the extra year to publish their research, amassing impressive publication records. But there was no parallel rise in the output of female economists.

From: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/business/tenure-extension...

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#69

Post by malvosenior »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #62
was_boring wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, decreasing human kind's birthrate is a net positive. Even in the absence of that, being a dad, and knowing many dads, we've already made the choice to "disadvantage" ourselves -- and wish we could do it more. What stops us is the fact that we would lose our jobs which disadvantages our kids. So I say bring on mandatory leave! The vast majority will be much happier.

One important tangent. There's a very significant nuance to birthrates you're not considering when it comes to reducing birthrates. Most of everybody knows birth rates in the developed world are decreasing, compared to the developing world. But what many do not know is that this sort of pattern holds true even within developed nations themselves. For instance in the US people who earn Think about what this means. The…

I don’t see how increasing the birth rate of people making over $200k per year leads to a better tomorrow (not that such an idealistic notion even exists). You’d be increasing the number of mega consumers, international flights, mc mansions...

What you really seem to be saying is you’d like people who aren’t like you to stop reproducing and people who are like you to reproduce more.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#70

Post by gaius »

gumby wrote: post #58
gaius wrote: post #41

There should be a system that every n years you get a 6-month paid sabbatical that can be used for any purpose - studying, traveling, having a kid, anything. Because consider two women, one who wants kids and one who doesn’t. Why should woman 2 be disadvantaged? Isn’t that the exact opposite of equality?

The point is that none should be disadvantaged.

Exactly. So decouple the time off from the reproduction.
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