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The End of Ballmer?

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Re: The End of Ballmer?

#11

Post by wumi »

edw519 wrote: post #3

Let's count Ballmer's winners: - MSN search vs. google? - hotmail vs. gmail? - xbox vs. wii? - zune vs. ipod? - Silverlight vs. AJAX? - Windows vs. linux? - Vista vs. OSX? - .net vs. anything that works? At what point do you stop blaming the soldiers and hold the general acountable?

half of these arguments are of the Facebook vs. Myspace variety -- or the Yang should be outed argument as well

1. Same could be said for Yahoo vs. Google

2. Hotmail/Live mail has more users than Gmail (ditto with MSN messenger and Gchat, or Yahoomail/Yahoo messenger vs. Gmail/Gchat)

3. How many years did the iPod have on the Zune? You should be making an argument why Ballmer/ MSFT didn't release a Zune Phone, not comparing the iPod to the Zune.

4. Xbox v. Wii? Are you serious?

Wii is heavily targeting a casual gamer market, while Xbox is more geared towards a more hard-core gamer, which is OK. Apples and Oranges. Wii outsells in systems, but not in games -- many dont even buy one game but just play what comes on the system.

I've had both the Wii and the Xbox/Xbox 360, btw, and I know many who do, just as I know many who have an Xbox and a PS3 for the game variety (i.e. Gears of War, Halo, Tom Clancy games on one and MGS, FF, etc. on the PS3)

Don't know any non-hackers who use Linux.

what about synch, surface, or photosynth?

You think OSX has Vista beat in the business world? Nice try. Most consumers and businesses buy machines not for the OS, but for the brand name of the machine --- Apple, Dell, HP, etc. so I'm not sure I see how OSX is a big winner over Vista. Gaining market share, sure, but Vista as a non-winner?

you obviously dislike MSFT but aren't really making any logical arguments why Ballmer should be outed other than that you prefer competing products.

Re: The End of Ballmer?

#12

Post by mattmaroon »

edw519 wrote: post #3

Let's count Ballmer's winners: - MSN search vs. google? - hotmail vs. gmail? - xbox vs. wii? - zune vs. ipod? - Silverlight vs. AJAX? - Windows vs. linux? - Vista vs. OSX? - .net vs. anything that works? At what point do you stop blaming the soldiers and hold the general acountable?

In fairness, he's been with them since 1980. Who knows what role he has played in their many successes over that time period.

Also, hotmail is far larger than gmail. That one belongs on a non-ironic winners list. If you want to make fun of him, go with hotmail vs. yahoo mail.

It might be best for all involved if he moves on though.

Re: The End of Ballmer?

#13

Post by mattmaroon »

edw519 wrote: post #7
aneesh wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points. But I'm pretty sure hotmail still has higher market share than GMail. And though I use Ubuntu over Windows, but the world is still all about Windows. From a revenue perspective, Windows made more money this year than in any previous year. That's good news for Ballmer. And Surface is really cool. MS Research does incredible work. Office is still king, and no one has come up with anything close to an Outlo…

Now. Do you think Microsoft's board is smart enough to know how fast the tech world is changing?

I think this is the problem. The c-suite at MSFT is full of people who were in the software industry in 1980. I don't really know who all is on the board, but they definitely need to get some fresh blood in the executive offices.

Re: The End of Ballmer?

#14

Post by mattmaroon »

wumi wrote: post #11
edw519 wrote: post #3

Let's count Ballmer's winners: - MSN search vs. google? - hotmail vs. gmail? - xbox vs. wii? - zune vs. ipod? - Silverlight vs. AJAX? - Windows vs. linux? - Vista vs. OSX? - .net vs. anything that works? At what point do you stop blaming the soldiers and hold the general acountable?

half of these arguments are of the Facebook vs. Myspace variety -- or the Yang should be outed argument as well 1. Same could be said for Yahoo vs. Google 2. Hotmail/Live mail has more users than Gmail (ditto with MSN messenger and Gchat, or Yahoomail/Yahoo messenger vs. Gmail/Gchat) 3. How many years did the iPod have on the Zune? You should be making an argument why Ballmer/ MSFT didn't release a Zune Phone, not co…

You're right on number 4. You really can't compare things to the Wii. The Wii is a black swan of sorts.

Nintendo is really firing on all cylinders right now. You can't expect MSFT to be able to beat a company entirely focused on gaming, with over 100 years of experience in the industry, in their own arena in that short of a time.

In fact, given the number of large companies that have tried and failed to make a dent in the console gaming industry over the last couple decades, the fact that MSFT has become a viable contender in such a short time period is actually quite impressive. The Xbox360 would be my vote for the most intelligent thing they've done in a very long time.

They embraced the web before their opponents and did it in a better way with Xbox Live. Features they added first (downloadable games or movies for instance, or the ability to stream media from a computer) are becoming standard elsewhere. In a lot of ways, they're ahead of the curve.

Re: The End of Ballmer?

#15

Post by nkohari »

edw519 wrote: post #3

Let's count Ballmer's winners: - MSN search vs. google? - hotmail vs. gmail? - xbox vs. wii? - zune vs. ipod? - Silverlight vs. AJAX? - Windows vs. linux? - Vista vs. OSX? - .net vs. anything that works? At what point do you stop blaming the soldiers and hold the general acountable?

I'll agree that Microsoft hasn't had a stellar record for the past 10 years or so, but this is just ridiculous.

+ I'll give you MSN search vs. Google, which is of course what the whole Yahoo bid was about.

- Hotmail was the first widely-used web mail client, and still has a very significant market share vs. Gmail and Yahoo Mail.

- The xbox has a very good market share of consoles, particularly considering the history of its competition in Sony and Nintendo.

+ The Zune is admittedly an also-ran. Then again, there are a lot of also-rans to the iPod. Microsoft isn't the only company who tried to mimic it and failed.

- Silverlight is still extremely new, and is more a competitor to Flash than AJAX. It has potential, but the jury is still very out.

- You're kidding, right? Maybe in the server market, but the desktop market is still completely dominated by Windows.

+ Vista was a huge mistake, and OSX beats the crap out of it.

- .NET works just fine as a competitor to Java. You need to substantiate this more if you want to make sweeping claims like that.

I'm no Microsoft fan, but it irks me when people blindly bash them. I know it's trendy to be anti-Microsoft (it has been for years), but it's tunnel vision.

Re: The End of Ballmer?

#16

Post by wanorris »

Microsoft has made some missteps, but in the end, they really just have two problems they need to address now, and two they need to address over the next couple of years. Ballmer has the potential to handle them, but if he doesn't get them sorted out, they'll need someone else who can.

The current problems are that they have a failed product cycle with Windows Vista, and they refuse to admit it, and they've set a goal of beating Google on Google's home turf, and they have no hope of attaining it. They need to own up to their mistakes with Vista, and announce that they will support XP side-by-side with Vista until Windows 7 ships. They also need to admit that they have no hope of winning in the search and contextual advertising businesses, and dial back their internet ambitions to try to focus on moving their Office business forward to clients interested in software-as-a-service.

Their longer-term problems are that they're losing market share to Macs and that they've ceded leadership in the browser and internet standards space to others. They need to make sure that with Win7, they deliver something people actually want, and they need to open up their internet roadmap and try to really work with standards groups instead of blowing them off.

All these problems are correctable, and Microsoft will have to make even more serious mistakes going forward to really implode their whole business. Whether Ballmer is the right guy to fix things remains to be seen.

Re: The End of Ballmer?

#17

Post by edw519 »

mattmaroon wrote: post #14
wumi wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

half of these arguments are of the Facebook vs. Myspace variety -- or the Yang should be outed argument as well 1. Same could be said for Yahoo vs. Google 2. Hotmail/Live mail has more users than Gmail (ditto with MSN messenger and Gchat, or Yahoomail/Yahoo messenger vs. Gmail/Gchat) 3. How many years did the iPod have on the Zune? You should be making an argument why Ballmer/ MSFT didn't release a Zune Phone, not co…

You're right on number 4. You really can't compare things to the Wii. The Wii is a black swan of sorts. Nintendo is really firing on all cylinders right now. You can't expect MSFT to be able to beat a company entirely focused on gaming, with over 100 years of experience in the industry, in their own arena in that short of a time. In fact, given the number of large companies that have tried and failed to make a dent i…

"You can't expect MSFT to be able to beat a company entirely focused on gaming"

Then why do they continue to insist on doing it? They have "focused" competitors in every market.

They compete with google in search.

They compete with Oracle in data bases.

They compete with SAP in enterprise apps.

Except for GE, who has an unfair advantage thanks to your tax dollars, the conglomerate has been dead for 20 years. Is Microsoft still so arrogant that they think they can be the only high tech conglomerate? They became big with a monopoly on the desktop and have long since lost their focus.

This is a problem of leadership. The days of the bully are over.

Re: The End of Ballmer?

#18

Post by edw519 »

nkohari wrote: post #15
edw519 wrote: post #3

Let's count Ballmer's winners: - MSN search vs. google? - hotmail vs. gmail? - xbox vs. wii? - zune vs. ipod? - Silverlight vs. AJAX? - Windows vs. linux? - Vista vs. OSX? - .net vs. anything that works? At what point do you stop blaming the soldiers and hold the general acountable?

I'll agree that Microsoft hasn't had a stellar record for the past 10 years or so, but this is just ridiculous. + I'll give you MSN search vs. Google, which is of course what the whole Yahoo bid was about. - Hotmail was the first widely-used web mail client, and still has a very significant market share vs. Gmail and Yahoo Mail. - The xbox has a very good market share of consoles, particularly considering the history…

I didn't intend to "bash" them. (Well, maybe a little.)

I'm just playing stockholder's advocate, questioning the people who are supposed to represent my best long term interests. $40B on the left side of the balance sheet covers for a lot of missteps, but sooner or later, someone's gotta start asking the hard questions like, "What is our focus?", "How do we position ourselves for the massive tech shifts about to happen", "What business are we going to be in in 10 years?", and "Why should I keep my dollars here?"

Bullys have a tough time with those questions. Visionaries don't.

Re: The End of Ballmer?

#19

Post by breck »

edw519 wrote: post #3

Let's count Ballmer's winners: - MSN search vs. google? - hotmail vs. gmail? - xbox vs. wii? - zune vs. ipod? - Silverlight vs. AJAX? - Windows vs. linux? - Vista vs. OSX? - .net vs. anything that works? At what point do you stop blaming the soldiers and hold the general acountable?

Yes, but let's not forget the most important part of any business, making money. I think he's won where it matters most.

MSFT (billions) Mar '08 2007 2006 Revenue: $14.4 $51 $44.3 Net Inc: $4.4 $14 $12.6

Re: The End of Ballmer?

#20

Post by davatk »

aneesh wrote: post #5
edw519 wrote: post #3

Let's count Ballmer's winners: - MSN search vs. google? - hotmail vs. gmail? - xbox vs. wii? - zune vs. ipod? - Silverlight vs. AJAX? - Windows vs. linux? - Vista vs. OSX? - .net vs. anything that works? At what point do you stop blaming the soldiers and hold the general acountable?

Good points. But I'm pretty sure hotmail still has higher market share than GMail. And though I use Ubuntu over Windows, but the world is still all about Windows. From a revenue perspective, Windows made more money this year than in any previous year. That's good news for Ballmer. And Surface is really cool. MS Research does incredible work. Office is still king, and no one has come up with anything close to an Outlo…

The problem with products like Photosynth and and Surface is that they don't really address the things Microsoft has problems with (like search).

The Office/OS cash cow was really created during the 1990s. I just don't see Ballmer as doing anything except maintain the status quo - which isn't sustainable over the long term.

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