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A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

theatlantic.com

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Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#81

Post by mikeash »

akarma wrote: post #78
mikeash wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is “Hitler was doing good things for the country” not apology for Nazis? It’s not even subtle! Nazis being evil from the start isn’t a retcon. Just look at their internal party purges, or how the Enabling Act got passed.

Half my family grew up in the Soviet Union and tend to love Putin, so, though not the above commenter, I can definitely answer this if you're willing to take an analogy. Yes, a leader can be corrupt and dictatorial, and yes, they can strong-arm many people. To somebody with strong morals and heavily deontological beliefs, they can look at that leader and say "How could anyone support such a person?". The answer is to…

I totally get how people can support these leaders, and how they can look good from the inside. What I don’t get is taking a really bad one and, long after it became obvious he was horrible in every way, saying that he was good until he went crazy. (Edit: more accurately, I understand how a person can do that, but not without being a sympathizer or at the very least an apologist.) What I really don’t get is taking that and saying that the notion that he and his party were pure evil from the start was a retcon by the victors.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#82

Post by NeedMoreTea »

olivermarks wrote: post #80
watwut wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitler followed the same politics beginning to end. His failed putch was a preview of how he treated enemies once he got into power. Also, economic only explanation ignores how much militarized Germany was, how much lost itself was impossible to stomach to them leading to "Jews stab us in back" myth. There is whole lot more.to it then just suffering economy. Hitler support was not.among poorest either, it was among a…

most of the German army (80%) was horse drawn and they also used bicycles extensively. They developed some impressive technology which they showcased for the blitzkreig propaganda but in reality it was clueless farmworkers given a belt with 'in God we trust' and uniform and ordered to march into Poland etc. Most of the perceptions of WWII, including the holocaust, have been shaped by post war US media. As an example…

You're right that somehow pre-war Wehrmacht has got a reputation as being something they were very much not - efficient and high tech. It was only 80% of German artillery that was horse drawn or more accurately only partially motorised at the outbreak of war. German infantry was entirely on foot (and frequently commandeered or stole bicycles). More importantly, Wehrmacht supply and logistics were woefully lacking mechanisation. The highly mechanised blitzkrieg was certainly partially PR, but was also a reaction the fact that the army was so poorly equipped in 39. They focused mechanisation on achieving full mechanisation rather than spreading it "fairly" across regiments. The had a small number of completely mechanised regiments, with fully modern equipment, and "the rest".

Still, you can't escape the fact blitzkrieg was also effective. It was effective as tactics had not evolved far from WW1 trench warfare. It was but a very small part of the military whole.

There were lots of shortcomings in the German war machine - for example, they never developed a successful 4 engine bomber severely limiting the bomb loads they could send, and range.

As to holocaust, my UK history lessons, before this mini series was made, and books referred to "the holocaust" as the main term, occasionally referring to the Nazi term "the final solution".

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#83

Post by watwut »

olivermarks wrote: post #79
watwut wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nazi were violent from the start. If you read any detailed history book about what Nazi actually did and how they came to power pretty from around when Hitler joined, you find them being violent and hateful. They were not only violent group around, that is absolutely true. But they were pretty bad even if you ignore Holocaust itself.

The victors always write the history, but only a few wealthy people actually 'win' a war. 'You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake'. Jeannette Rankin

I think I am among the winners. I would not exist had nazi won and implemented their plan.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#84

Post by watwut »

olivermarks wrote: post #80
watwut wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitler followed the same politics beginning to end. His failed putch was a preview of how he treated enemies once he got into power. Also, economic only explanation ignores how much militarized Germany was, how much lost itself was impossible to stomach to them leading to "Jews stab us in back" myth. There is whole lot more.to it then just suffering economy. Hitler support was not.among poorest either, it was among a…

most of the German army (80%) was horse drawn and they also used bicycles extensively. They developed some impressive technology which they showcased for the blitzkreig propaganda but in reality it was clueless farmworkers given a belt with 'in God we trust' and uniform and ordered to march into Poland etc. Most of the perceptions of WWII, including the holocaust, have been shaped by post war US media. As an example…

I have no idea what of what you wrote could come across as defending Nazi. None of it sounds like defense at all (neither soldier farmers nor origin of word nor us media). I am not from US and had little access to postwar US media. Instead I read multiple books written by Historians about WWII, Germany and Hitler. I am not sure what does origin of the term Holocaust have to use with the thread. We can use Shoah and will not change a thing.

The wehrmacht was national army with long tradition. They took over most of Europe including significant part of Russian territory. Not clueless farmers and clueless farmers were not in leadership. Moreover, Germany was preparing for war for years and that included school system trying to help raise soldier material. As for bicycles, bicycles don't require gas which is why popularity among both army and civilians. Add to it restrictions imposed on German army by WWI victors (which Germans broke, but had to be careful not to do it too openly) and it all becomes logical.

Polish army was still using primary horses and did not anticipated modern war. Germans actually came with better technology.

Lastly, the idea that bad things started with war and later Holocaust is not correct. The state performed repressions of political opposition and violent social control started at earliest, the moment nazi took power. Plans were ready in advance. The nazi themselves were like that even before they took state power into control and violence etc played role already during democratic state, including during elections.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#85

Post by gammateam »

reitanqild wrote: post #77
gammateam wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Backing Poland was a choice in the 1930s. Just like not backing the Ukraine was a choice in the 2010s. There were applicable treaties. It was a choice, and now all your friends are dead.

> Backing Poland was a choice in the 1930s. Not backing Poland has to be blamed on the guy before Churchill though?

Fine, Chamberlain.

The Dunkirk fiasco and movie should be renamed "So maybe don't back Poland next time"

Although the WWII's successes are taught as such, there just isn't a history of nobility to support what happened.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#86

Post by olivermarks »

watwut wrote: post #84
olivermarks wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most of the German army (80%) was horse drawn and they also used bicycles extensively. They developed some impressive technology which they showcased for the blitzkreig propaganda but in reality it was clueless farmworkers given a belt with 'in God we trust' and uniform and ordered to march into Poland etc. Most of the perceptions of WWII, including the holocaust, have been shaped by post war US media. As an example…

I have no idea what of what you wrote could come across as defending Nazi. None of it sounds like defense at all (neither soldier farmers nor origin of word nor us media). I am not from US and had little access to postwar US media. Instead I read multiple books written by Historians about WWII, Germany and Hitler. I am not sure what does origin of the term Holocaust have to use with the thread. We can use Shoah and w…

I was attempting to make the point that our perception of past realities is mostly shaped by the media. Estimates vary but from 75 to 120 million people perished in WWII with many more gravely injured physically and mentally. Now that generation has died and TV and film have taken over 'dramatizing' events...

https://vimeo.com/128373915

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#87

Post by ironic_ali »

dredmorbius wrote: post #41
ironic_ali wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit, through history classes and exams, I didn't learn anything other than how brilliant Churchill was. Then in my 20's the internet appeared and Churchill's real history was there in black and white. All it did was make me question everything I'd been taught about Britain and the establishment. Questioning everything from then on, only lead to the concrete conclusion that the British education system and estab…

the British education system and establishment (aristocracy, business, corporation of London, parliament, the lord's, judiciary, the class system) was designed/evolved to keep them rich and holders of power ad infinitum. Noted by John Stuart Mill in the 1870s, as reported by Han Jensen: the members of the university "hierarchy" made it their "business, the business for which they ... [were] paid," to "uphold certain…

Thanks for the info and links - and multiple hour (so far..) rabbit hole! I read Mill at School, but obviously need to re-visit him again.

Your reddit sub is really interesting too, trawling it now!

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#88

Post by olivermarks »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #82
olivermarks wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most of the German army (80%) was horse drawn and they also used bicycles extensively. They developed some impressive technology which they showcased for the blitzkreig propaganda but in reality it was clueless farmworkers given a belt with 'in God we trust' and uniform and ordered to march into Poland etc. Most of the perceptions of WWII, including the holocaust, have been shaped by post war US media. As an example…

You're right that somehow pre-war Wehrmacht has got a reputation as being something they were very much not - efficient and high tech. It was only 80% of German artillery that was horse drawn or more accurately only partially motorised at the outbreak of war. German infantry was entirely on foot (and frequently commandeered or stole bicycles). More importantly, Wehrmacht supply and logistics were woefully lacking mec…

https://newrepublic.com/article/121807/when-holocaust-became...

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#89

Post by dagw »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #32
qubax wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

Something that's completely socially unacceptable to say: The real thing that put Hitler in power to begin with was the horrendous war reparations Germany was saddled with from WW1 because it was "last man standing" on the losing side. You get called a Nazi sympathizer and things like that for trying to provide that context, but to my mind that is the real reason they said "Never again" and instituted global protecti…

You get called a Nazi sympathizer and things like that for trying to provide that context

Where? I learnt WWI & WWII history while at school in England, and that was exactly the version we were taught. Although modern historians somewhat dispute the simplicity of that narrative.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#90

Post by iamshs »

fellellor wrote: post #65
iamshs wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gandhi promoted caste apartheid and actively went on a hunger strike to prevent 'lower castes'/'untouchables' from getting representation in Parliament. This event was whitewashed in our school books as Gandhi did it to prevent English from breaking Hindu unity as not anyone reduce Gandhi's bargaining power. Gandhi also suppressed India's linguistic diversity and promoted Indians to have only one language. Here again…

That is just plain bullshit. He called them harijans which from today's cultural standpoint looks patronizing, but he had nothing but altruistic intentions for them and wanted the caste system gone.

Ok, change my view. Quoting him directly, “I believe that caste has saved Hinduism from disintegration. One of my correspondents suggests that we should abolish the caste system but adopt the class system of Europe, meaning that the idea of hereditary castes should be rejected. I am inclined to think that the law of heredity is an eternal law and any attempt to alter it must lead to utter confusion. Hindus believe in transmigration of the soul and Nature will adjust the balance by degrading a Brahmin if he misbehaves to a lower caste, and upgrading one who lives the life of a Brahmin to a Brahmin in his next life.”

He believes in hereditary inherited caste apartheid. Any wiggle room in his words there?

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