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A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

theatlantic.com

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Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#51
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. In particular Gandhi promoted the caste system and disagreed with those who said it should be eliminated.

Gandhi promoted caste apartheid and actively went on a hunger strike to prevent 'lower castes'/'untouchables' from getting representation in Parliament. This event was whitewashed in our school books as Gandhi did it to prevent English from breaking Hindu unity as not anyone reduce Gandhi's bargaining power. Gandhi also suppressed India's linguistic diversity and promoted Indians to have only one language. Here again…

> Gandhi promoted caste apartheid and actively went on a hunger strike to prevent 'lower castes'/'untouchables' from getting representation in Parliament.

Any source where I can read more about this ? Never heard this part about Gandhi.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#52
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a massive difference between saying that the treatment of Germany after WWI set the stage for Hitler, and saying that Hitler did good things for Germany until he went nuts. The former will find wide agreement, while the latter is just apology for Nazis, who were evil from the start, and just took a while to really ramp it up.

No, it is not apology for Nazis. FYI: My initial comment was well into the negatives for a time. A lot of people simply cannot look objectively at anything related to WW2. They know how it ultimately turned out, so they basically ret-con it as "they were pure evil from the start." The problem is such mental models foster convenient explanations and justifications, not solutions for making sure such things don't happe…

Most people's perception of WWII has devolved into 1950's type Hollywood western 'white hat' 'black hat', good versus evil story telling with little understanding of substance. Presumably this is because the generations that experienced it have died or are too senile to discuss it publicly these days. We will never learn

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#53
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a massive difference between saying that the treatment of Germany after WWI set the stage for Hitler, and saying that Hitler did good things for Germany until he went nuts. The former will find wide agreement, while the latter is just apology for Nazis, who were evil from the start, and just took a while to really ramp it up.

No, it is not apology for Nazis. FYI: My initial comment was well into the negatives for a time. A lot of people simply cannot look objectively at anything related to WW2. They know how it ultimately turned out, so they basically ret-con it as "they were pure evil from the start." The problem is such mental models foster convenient explanations and justifications, not solutions for making sure such things don't happe…

There's a rather awkward question about when one thinks Hitler went nuts. To think the early years of the Nazi regime were acceptable requires overlooking the thuggery they used to get power in the first place, the brutal (and not secret) things they were doing to 'undesirables' already, and what Hitler had revealed of himself in 'Mein Kampf'.

On the other hand, I agree that no nation or ethnic group can assume itself intrinsically immune to such things.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something that's completely socially unacceptable to say: The real thing that put Hitler in power to begin with was the horrendous war reparations Germany was saddled with from WW1 because it was "last man standing" on the losing side. You get called a Nazi sympathizer and things like that for trying to provide that context, but to my mind that is the real reason they said "Never again" and instituted global protecti…

What do you mean horrendous war reparations? Germany remained independent, lost barely any territory and were allowed to delay paying war reparations. Germany's other allies were far worse of losing far more territory and descending into anarchy all the way up to the second world war. Hitler got into power because of the great depression and the German populations attraction at the time to authoritarian nationalist p…

I'm finding myself at a loss for how to engage your remark. I don't think I'm wrong, but it possibly isn't phrased that well.

In a nutshell, the seeds of WW2 were planted in WW1. This is a longstanding human tradition and is in part related to the historical practice of extracting war reparations, but there was other stuff as well that wouldn't, strictly speaking, be classified that way, yet still had a negative impact.

I've read a fair amount of history. I was a history major for a time. My ex was career military and particularly interested in military history and had an extensive book collection. We sometimes looked up the actual battles while watching movies.

The American Civil War is notable for being singular and not the beginning of a series of civil wars. Grant was an alcoholic and ne'er-do-well and this has been credited with his unprecedented choice to set very merciful terms of surrender. Not only were war reparations not extracted, he insisted that the South accept help for rebuilding.

This has been credited with being the roots of similar tactics post WW2 where America occupied and helped rebuild both Japan and Germany.

I hope that's a little clearer. I don't know that it is. I have a raging headache.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is not apology for Nazis. FYI: My initial comment was well into the negatives for a time. A lot of people simply cannot look objectively at anything related to WW2. They know how it ultimately turned out, so they basically ret-con it as "they were pure evil from the start." The problem is such mental models foster convenient explanations and justifications, not solutions for making sure such things don't happe…

There's a rather awkward question about when one thinks Hitler went nuts. To think the early years of the Nazi regime were acceptable requires overlooking the thuggery they used to get power in the first place, the brutal (and not secret) things they were doing to 'undesirables' already, and what Hitler had revealed of himself in 'Mein Kampf'. On the other hand, I agree that no nation or ethnic group can assume itsel…

My mother was a young child in Germany during WW2. I imagine she had no firsthand sophisticated understanding of politics at the time and was essentially repeating opinions of adults she knew.

But she was also remarking on one of the programs that provided servants to families. I don't recall the details. She could remember her family benefiting in some way from such a program.

Regardless of all those details, Germany was in dire straits and this was due in part to a global depression and in part due to how other nations were treating Germany post WW1. It was the people of Germany suffering because of all that and they likely did not have all the details we now know about Nazi tactics.

This was well before our highly connected modern communications. They used to play news at movie theaters during WW2. TVs were not yet widespread.

My mother's remark is firsthand testimony concerning the perceptions of ordinary people on the ground at the time. That isn't apologist. It doesn't mean any of the ugly political things people are reading into it.

It is interesting to me for that reason. It is rare insight into how and why Hitler could rise to power to begin with. At least some of the people at the time perceived him as doing good things for a country being crushed by outside forces.

Hindsight is 20/20. People pretty routinely are shocked to find where their path has led them. I don't see any reason to question the idea that the ordinary people of Germany could believe he was doing good for the country until things went very wrong and then suddenly feeling like "He's lost his mind and we didn't sign up for this!"

They weren't on Twitter watching political inquiries go down in real time. Things were different back then.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#56
post #11

Churchill was a notorious scoundrel, constantly in debt and bailed out by unsavoury characters https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/no-more-champ... '...On his first day at school, Winston Churchill asked his mother for more cash. She groused: “You do get through it in the most rapid manner… and the more you have the more you want to spend.” He was 13, and already he was spending more than a family “of six…

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

It would be better to give the whole truth rather than try and land it on Churchill individually, quoting one suspect author as only source.

1. The UK had a coalition government and a war cabinet of 9 not a Churchillian dictatorship, so blaming it on Churchill is pure hyperbole.

2. Burma fell in 42 from which point Bengal lost previous regular rice imports and was now on the front line with the Japanese. Had Japan reached Bengal the death figures would have been an order of magnitude higher. To hugely understate it, Japan didn't have a great reputation for treatment of populations of countries they occupied. Burma was the location of the infamous Burma-Siam railway that was being built with slave labour, to supply Burma and the expected Bengal front.

3. Many of the Indian states under their respective Maharajas applied trade restrictions with Bengal after the fall of Burma, through 42 starting with Punjab. That significantly heightened food shortages and profiteering. Seeing how prices rose most of the other Indian states joined in. It was the inability to internally import rice that was perhaps the largest single factor. Thanks to the vassal nature of the states under the Raj these decisions were not by the British.

4. Bengal was inundated with half a million refugees fleeing Burma, and thousands more defeated troops. Most were injured and ill.

5. At that point in the war there was little could be done to prevent Japanese attacks in the Bay of Bengal. The War Cabinet did indeed decline Mountbatten's requests for shipping food due to expected shipping losses. The cabinet papers are now freely available.

6. A series of natural disasters in the region, including extensive crop disease, a cyclone that killed 15,000 and spread the disease spores widely, followed by further floods. What was Churchill's part in these?

Churchill had faults, and some appalling decisions in his career that could be easily criticised. The Bengal famine is probably one of the weakest as it is mostly untrue.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is not apology for Nazis. FYI: My initial comment was well into the negatives for a time. A lot of people simply cannot look objectively at anything related to WW2. They know how it ultimately turned out, so they basically ret-con it as "they were pure evil from the start." The problem is such mental models foster convenient explanations and justifications, not solutions for making sure such things don't happe…

Most people's perception of WWII has devolved into 1950's type Hollywood western 'white hat' 'black hat', good versus evil story telling with little understanding of substance. Presumably this is because the generations that experienced it have died or are too senile to discuss it publicly these days. We will never learn

Following WW2, an awful lot of our fictional villains were German. That's changed relatively recently. Germans were the "trope" evil bad guy.

WW2 is actually even inspiration for, say, Star Wars. Darth Vader and his troops are something of a cross between Japanese samurai uniforms and WW2 German uniforms.

It's so deeply embedded, we don't even notice the connection. We don't question where those images come from. We just accept it as "Yup. Totes The Bad Guy! Looks Bad to me!"

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#58
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, were it not for Churchill, the unprecedented horrors of Hitler may have gone completely unchecked, or else only been stopped by the even greater horrors of Stalin. Churchill was the cornerstone of Britain's continued resistance, and the primary reason they didn't sue for peace after the fall of France. Hitler would have let Britain and her empire survive had they left him unmolested; Churchill instead led th…

The western front was relatively small part of the WWII. It was the Eastern Front and the U.S material support to USSR that really decided the war. It's interesting to think what would have happened after Pearl Harbor if Britain would have not been so strongly involved. The US could have still sided with the USSR and defeated Germany. Without the Western Front the war between USSR and the US would have been more like…

Without any Western Front at all, the Soviets would most likely have eventually prevailed and come to rule the entire continent of Europe. Britain's support for the resistance and governments-in-exile of the various European democracies also effectively prevented a power vacuum that Stalin would have exploited.

Churchill was far more distrustful of Stalin than FDR was. Even if the US sided with the USSR, they would have likely conceded to Stalin more of his goals. Also, without French, Belgian, Dutch, etc. resistance movements and governments-in-exile surviving under British support, the US would have an extremely limited capacity to occupy and rebuild continental Europe, and very little motivation to. Without the Free French movement and Charles de Gaulle, the only seemingly legitimate French leadership after the war would have been the very same government that collaborated with the Nazis, and the Soviets would have just summarily killed all of them and replaced them with their own collaborators.

It's also not entirely clear to me that the US would have joined the war against Germany at all without Britain already being in it. If Britain sued for peace with Germany, they would be unhindered in protecting their empire against Japanese aggression, while the Germans would be unlikely to cooperate with the Japanese against the British. Without Japan attacking either Britain or Russia, there's no reason for a Japanese attack against the United States to provoke American intervention against Germany. Britain's continued belligerency and the escalating American efforts to aid Britain without formally joining the war were necessary parts of joining the two wars into one.

Speaking of which, it also shouldn't be underestimated how deftly Churchill was able to convince the Americans--who had just been attacked by the Japanese, not the Germans--that Germany, rather than Japan, should be their first war priority.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#59
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

Something that's completely socially unacceptable to say: The real thing that put Hitler in power to begin with was the horrendous war reparations Germany was saddled with from WW1 because it was "last man standing" on the losing side. You get called a Nazi sympathizer and things like that for trying to provide that context, but to my mind that is the real reason they said "Never again" and instituted global protecti…

> The real thing that put Hitler in power to begin with was the horrendous war reparations Germany was saddled with from WW1 because it was "last man standing" on the losing side.

I live in the Netherlands and I remember being thought that in school as one of the reasons of Hitlers rise to power.

The Dutch wikipage [1] of the Versailles treaty also reflects this in a section called "consequences of the treaty" (De gevolgen van het verdrag).

[1] https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdrag_van_Versailles_(1919...

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#60
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, were it not for Churchill, the unprecedented horrors of Hitler may have gone completely unchecked, or else only been stopped by the even greater horrors of Stalin. Churchill was the cornerstone of Britain's continued resistance, and the primary reason they didn't sue for peace after the fall of France. Hitler would have let Britain and her empire survive had they left him unmolested; Churchill instead led th…

"his failings are not as important as his heroism" We should be willing to see both sides of people like him and accept them both. A lot of people have the tendency once they think someone did something great in one area to deny that person's flaws in other areas. So yes, Churchill did well in WW2 but he did very stupid things in WW1 costing lot of soldiers their lives and was a complete racist.

There was no shortage of British politicians and cabinet members who were unapologetic imperialists or who were responsible for fatal blunders. There was a shortage of men who had the foresight to understand the Nazi threat and the power and will to oppose it. Churchill is unexceptional in his evil but extremely exceptional in his heroism.

Much of the horror at Churchill, in isolation, is completely normal and justified. The thing is, there isn’t really any single heroic historical figure who is uncomplicatedly heroic. Abraham Lincoln was a de facto dictator who violated the Constitution in order to save it, Nelson Mandela was a terrorist who killed people and refused to renounce violence, FDR interned the Japanese and had plenty of his own dictatorial impulses, Martin Luther King was a serial philanderer who plagiarized his doctoral thesis, Washington and Jefferson owned slaves, Isaac Newton was a complete asshole with eccentric and fanatical religious views, and so forth.

So yeah, true, let’s acknowledge the awful things about Churchill. But let’s not over exaggerate them or use them to draw a moral equivalency with Adolf fucking Hitler.

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