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Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

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Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#171

Post by mercutio2 »

avar wrote: post #161
slg wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not very familiar with the systems other countries use so I am genuinely curious which ones you are referring to here and whether they are comparable to the US. The US has a centuries long history of laws designed to make it harder for "undesirables" to vote. The US's racial and socioeconomic makeup and its history of oppression of those groups makes this a much more contentious issue than some other countries t…

E.g. in Iceland you can vote with a driver's license, a passport or a national ID. Those cost, respectively, $45, $110 and $40. Although I see now the first national ID you get issued in your life is free, but if you ever lose it you pay the fee to renew it. It's the same sort of thing in most European countries, you need to prove who you are, and usually doing that costs some one-off nominal fee. Voting is always go…

Claiming to be a citizen, or claiming to be someone you’re not, is voter fraud, and can lead to a decade or more in prison.

As it happens, essentially no one in the US commits voter fraud of this sort (the go in, vote as someone you’re not, kind. Ballot stuffing may or may not be a thing, or rigging of digital elections may be a thing).

The US also makes voting day be on a normal work days, it’s not a holiday or weekend, and people don’t get time off work to vote. There are often very long waiting lines to vote. So telling people they need an ID to vote leads to people actually being disenfranchised, in the US, if they just forgot their ID.

And again, actual voter fraud is so rare that it’s national news when someone is convicted of it (and people go looking for it often).

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#172

Post by wtallis »

avar wrote: post #161
slg wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not very familiar with the systems other countries use so I am genuinely curious which ones you are referring to here and whether they are comparable to the US. The US has a centuries long history of laws designed to make it harder for "undesirables" to vote. The US's racial and socioeconomic makeup and its history of oppression of those groups makes this a much more contentious issue than some other countries t…

E.g. in Iceland you can vote with a driver's license, a passport or a national ID. Those cost, respectively, $45, $110 and $40. Although I see now the first national ID you get issued in your life is free, but if you ever lose it you pay the fee to renew it. It's the same sort of thing in most European countries, you need to prove who you are, and usually doing that costs some one-off nominal fee. Voting is always go…

> I'm curious about how this works in practice. If you're a tourist visiting the US during a vote can you just show up to a voting polling station and cast a vote? If you don't have to show your ID what happens from the time you walk up to a polling station until you cast your vote and walk out again?

In most states, you must be registered to vote before election day. In those states, non-citizens who attempt to vote will be asked their name and address before they are handed a ballot. When they are found to not be on the registration list for that polling precinct, they will not get a regular ballot. They may be given the chance to cast a provisional ballot, but it will be thrown out during the counting process when evidence cannot be found that the person was eligible to vote.

The voter registration process has proven to be a highly effective means of preventing ineligible voters from voting. The exceptions tend to be when different government departments fail to communicate effectively to catch people registering in multiple places, or ineligible criminals attempting to register. Voter ID does not meaningfully improve the security against non-citizens voting.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#173

Post by null000 »

jniedrauer wrote: post #14
return-value wrote: post #6

I work for the municipality of Skanderborg, Denmark. We have what we call digital elections, but what’s digitized is the registration process. Basically every adult gets a voting card with their information + a barcode, we scan those barcodes when they turn up to receive their ballot(is that the right word for voting list?), and then they are registered. The actual voting takes place on paper, and while it takes time…

> It’s a little taxing, but everyone involved enjoy the process This is part of the problem in the United States. Voting is a chore, and you're often going to lose money (unpaid time off) to do it. If elections were national holidays and voting was treated as a privilege instead of a chore, we would be much better off.

Or you can just do mail in ballots. Washington state, for instance, sends out ballots to all registered voters twoish weeks in advance of each race, and achieved almost 80% turnout for the 2016 election[1], for instance, which we'll probably top this year with the inclusion of pre-paid postage.

https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/research/voter-turnout-by-e...

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#174

Post by slg »

avar wrote: post #161
slg wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not very familiar with the systems other countries use so I am genuinely curious which ones you are referring to here and whether they are comparable to the US. The US has a centuries long history of laws designed to make it harder for "undesirables" to vote. The US's racial and socioeconomic makeup and its history of oppression of those groups makes this a much more contentious issue than some other countries t…

E.g. in Iceland you can vote with a driver's license, a passport or a national ID. Those cost, respectively, $45, $110 and $40. Although I see now the first national ID you get issued in your life is free, but if you ever lose it you pay the fee to renew it. It's the same sort of thing in most European countries, you need to prove who you are, and usually doing that costs some one-off nominal fee. Voting is always go…

Iceland was the type of country I was thinking of when I wrote that comment. Iceland has a smaller population than any state in the US and smaller than over 50 cities in the US. It is also very homogeneous when it comes to race and socioeconomic attributes. I am sure that they have found an approach that works for them, but it is tough to use them as a model for the US. Either way, even a requirement for a $45 ID would be seen by many in the US as a poll tax which was outlawed by a constitutional amendment during the civil rights movement.

To answer your questions about voting in the US, everything varies by state/territory. All of them require you to register before you are allowed to vote. The deadline to register is usually weeks to months before election day. A few states allow you to register on election day and your vote won't be counted until your registration is confirmed. When you register (or in the lead up to the election) you are assigned a specific polling location. Many states have some sort of absentee or mail ballot that allows you to vote if you can't or don't want to physically go to a polling place. You have to be registered ahead of time to receive one of those ballots.

On election day you show up to your assigned polling place and tell them your name. The polling place will have a list of people eligible to vote at that location and will match your name to their list. You might be asked to sign next to your name on their list to confirm you voted and potentially confirm your identity. I have no idea if anyone really reviews the signatures. If your name isn't on the list, you may be given a provisional ballot and then there will be a process to investigate why you weren't on the list. Provisional ballots generally aren't counted unless a race is extremely close and a large percentage of those ballots end up being disqualified for various reasons.

An extremely determined tourist might be able to lie their way into filling out a provisional ballot but it wouldn't be counted because their eligibility wouldn't be confirmed. They could potentially impersonate a known eligible voter, but that would require them knowing the correct polling place, knowing that person has not yet voted, and be willing to commit an obvious fraud. The upside for committing that type of fraud is extremely low considering the effort that would be required to swing anything but the smallest elections. There is no real evidence that anymore than a handful of people attempt this type of thing during any election.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#176

Post by kaycebasques »

mc32 wrote: post #162
kaycebasques wrote: post #41

The HN consensus seems to be that digital voting is very difficult to do right. I trust the consensus opinion, but this also makes me sad. The bigger picture that I think we’re missing here is the opportunity for huge-scale direct democracy. I know the usual debates against DD, but I think there’s ways to safeguard against those problems. E.g. you can’t vote on an issue without hearing both sides of it and passing a…

>”E.g. you can’t vote on an issue without hearing both sides of it and passing a test that demonstrates that you understand the pros and cons...” I think this would be thoroughly gamed. You’d get “cheat sheets” on how to answer, or more importantly, you’d disenfranchise poorly educated people or people with learning disabilities (who afaik, still have a right to vote.)

I've thought about the gaming aspect. I'll put this idea out there, for any enterprising HN visitor who wants to take up the mantle: I think there's a general need for quiz technology that is difficult to game. I think this is a technology that could be applied in many different domains.

The disenfranchisement angle is important and is something that I haven't thought about. Thank you for pointing out.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#177

Post by Groxx »

jniedrauer wrote: post #14
return-value wrote: post #6

I work for the municipality of Skanderborg, Denmark. We have what we call digital elections, but what’s digitized is the registration process. Basically every adult gets a voting card with their information + a barcode, we scan those barcodes when they turn up to receive their ballot(is that the right word for voting list?), and then they are registered. The actual voting takes place on paper, and while it takes time…

> It’s a little taxing, but everyone involved enjoy the process This is part of the problem in the United States. Voting is a chore, and you're often going to lose money (unpaid time off) to do it. If elections were national holidays and voting was treated as a privilege instead of a chore, we would be much better off.

I mean, it would help if voting didn't take literally several hours of waiting in line in the sun around here. You can (and some do) get heat-stroke from that kind of thing. It's utterly ridiculous, beyond "chore" and into "this might cause you to lose your job".

Silicon Valley is surprisingly terrible at most things governmental.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#178

Post by AnimalMuppet »

dev_dull wrote: post #98
tjoff wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of those points could possibly be a problem.

You’ve clearly never seen your local government at work.

I think tjoff was being sarcastic, but I'm not certain.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#179

Post by dragonwriter »

Groxx wrote: post #177
jniedrauer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s a little taxing, but everyone involved enjoy the process This is part of the problem in the United States. Voting is a chore, and you're often going to lose money (unpaid time off) to do it. If elections were national holidays and voting was treated as a privilege instead of a chore, we would be much better off.

I mean, it would help if voting didn't take literally several hours of waiting in line in the sun around here. You can (and some do) get heat-stroke from that kind of thing. It's utterly ridiculous, beyond "chore" and into "this might cause you to lose your job". Silicon Valley is surprisingly terrible at most things governmental.

Silicon Valley is part of California, which has permanent absentee voting available everywhere; voting is only a chore if you choose for it to be a chore.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#180

Post by dang »

robotrout wrote: post #110
wtallis wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what cost? Are you interested in ensuring that additional voting restrictions actually prevent more illegal votes than they prevent legitimate votes? What makes you think the base rate of non-citizen voting is even high enough to be a problem that can be addressed without invariably causing more harm than good?

Do you believe your own rhetoric, or is it just reflex at this point? Use paper ballots and voter id and we never have to have another discussion about voter fraud and election legitimacy. It is important that the people who should be part of the system actually believe in that system or it all breaks. There are many Americans (myself included) who feel that these things need to be addressed. This constant push back…

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