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A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

theatlantic.com

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Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#31

Post by denzil_correa »

ip26 wrote: post #13
qubax wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

Many historical figures are like that. Both great & terrible. Ghandi, too, had his major flaws completely unbefitting his image.

> Ghandi, too, had his major flaws completely unbefitting his image.

For some reason, this incorrect spelling of "Ghandi" always gets my goat. The actual spelling is "Gandhi". You can clearly see it in his signature and countless other letters. Yet, I have no idea why this spelling persists even though I understand it might produce similar phonetic sounds. I imagine, it shouldn't be difficult in 2018.

Sorry to go off topic but I hope you empathize where I come from.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#32

Post by DoreenMichele »

qubax wrote: post #11
olivermarks wrote: post #6

Churchill was a notorious scoundrel, constantly in debt and bailed out by unsavoury characters https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/no-more-champ... '...On his first day at school, Winston Churchill asked his mother for more cash. She groused: “You do get through it in the most rapid manner… and the more you have the more you want to spend.” He was 13, and already he was spending more than a family “of six…

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

Something that's completely socially unacceptable to say:

The real thing that put Hitler in power to begin with was the horrendous war reparations Germany was saddled with from WW1 because it was "last man standing" on the losing side. You get called a Nazi sympathizer and things like that for trying to provide that context, but to my mind that is the real reason they said "Never again" and instituted global protections for financial stuff at the end of WW2.

People seem to forget the entire world was suffering through a depression prior to WW2 and most wars are, at their root, motivated by resource limitations.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#33

Post by microtherion »

btilly wrote: post #2

Interesting tidbit about Winston Churchill. He was the only person in any of the major warring powers to have held high office in both WW 1 and WW 2. In WW 1 he was in charge of the British navy (though he did resign after Gallipoli). In WW 2 he, of course, rose to Prime Minister. What is more surprising, perhaps, is that this is a claim that nobody else can make. But when you examine it, it is in the nature of democ…

This is all the more remarkable as Churchill, whatever his other qualities, demonstrated terrible military judgment in WWI (and, some argue, in WW II as well).

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#34

Post by PhasmaFelis »

denzil_correa wrote: post #30
flying_whale wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, why is this comment being down-voted? It's written in a respectful manner, cites a strong source, and is very much relevant to the link posted.

> The things churchill said and did were no different than what hitler said and did. Most likely, this.

If these quotes are correct:

> He raged that it was their own fault for "breeding like rabbits". At other times, he said the plague was "merrily" culling the population.

Then the "said" part is accurate. The "did" part may be hyperbolic, but not enough to overpower an otherwise excellent post. It really does seem like people are just knee-jerk reacting to criticism of a popular figure.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#35

Post by gammateam »

tomohawk wrote: post #17
qubax wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

1943 - the British were in engaged in a multifront war against Germany, Italy, and Japan with their very survival in doubt. Then, Japan cut off a major food supply to Bengal. Blaming this all on Churchill is a bit much.

Backing Poland was a choice in the 1930s.

Just like not backing the Ukraine was a choice in the 2010s.

There were applicable treaties. It was a choice, and now all your friends are dead.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#36

Post by gammateam »

philwelch wrote: post #14
qubax wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

And yet, were it not for Churchill, the unprecedented horrors of Hitler may have gone completely unchecked, or else only been stopped by the even greater horrors of Stalin. Churchill was the cornerstone of Britain's continued resistance, and the primary reason they didn't sue for peace after the fall of France. Hitler would have let Britain and her empire survive had they left him unmolested; Churchill instead led th…

Thats been my independent perspective too.

Although Germany had a good understanding of the treaties in force and cascading consequences for breaking them - and were ready to strike on all fronts following their Poland invasion - I didn't get the impression that they would actually attempt administration of all of Europe, unless their hand was forced which it was.

I didn't get the impression they wanted it. There were gripes with the Polish people, and a bunch of treaties that would have let that continue.

I'm sure its possible to find quips regarding a 20th century Global German Empire, but I don't think that was really a goal. In the European Theatre I just I think the whole thing spiraled out of control. From the extremist things I've read from the Nazi generals to the Nuremberg trials, I see people acting irrationally in a group doing things they wouldn't have individually considered. This opinion doesn't have a consequence, there's no forgiveness for what happened, its just a perspective I hadn't seen people really talk about.

Britain didn't have to back Poland.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#37

Post by stordoff »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #32
qubax wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

Something that's completely socially unacceptable to say: The real thing that put Hitler in power to begin with was the horrendous war reparations Germany was saddled with from WW1 because it was "last man standing" on the losing side. You get called a Nazi sympathizer and things like that for trying to provide that context, but to my mind that is the real reason they said "Never again" and instituted global protecti…

> The real thing that put Hitler in power to begin with was the horrendous war reparations Germany was saddled with from WW1 because it was "last man standing" on the losing side

I'm not sure why this is socially unacceptable - I thought it was widely accepted that Hitler rode the economic woes into office, and used them to blame the Jews (amongst others). Now, if you start using that to justify what the Nazi party did, I can see why you might be called a Nazi sympathiser, but I don't see why that statement on its own is particularly controversial (if perhaps only presenting one factor).

The question does remain though - would the Great Depression on its own (without reparations), or had Germany been in a better economy situation, been sufficient to result in Hitler's rise to power?

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#38

Post by TaylorAlexander »

ip26 wrote: post #13
qubax wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

Many historical figures are like that. Both great & terrible. Ghandi, too, had his major flaws completely unbefitting his image.

Yep. In particular Gandhi promoted the caste system and disagreed with those who said it should be eliminated.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#39

Post by DoreenMichele »

stordoff wrote: post #37
DoreenMichele wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something that's completely socially unacceptable to say: The real thing that put Hitler in power to begin with was the horrendous war reparations Germany was saddled with from WW1 because it was "last man standing" on the losing side. You get called a Nazi sympathizer and things like that for trying to provide that context, but to my mind that is the real reason they said "Never again" and instituted global protecti…

> The real thing that put Hitler in power to begin with was the horrendous war reparations Germany was saddled with from WW1 because it was "last man standing" on the losing side I'm not sure why this is socially unacceptable - I thought it was widely accepted that Hitler rode the economic woes into office, and used them to blame the Jews (amongst others). Now, if you start using that to justify what the Nazi party d…

My mother is German. She once said to me something like "Hitler was doing good things for the country -- until he went nuts."

I brought that up on a forum. It isn't justification for Nazi atrocities. It is insight into how the people on the ground suffering hardship saw him in his early years. He was perceived to be a good leader doing good things for the people, at least at first.

But, hey, my previous comment is already deep in the negatives, so I'm guessing HN won't be much more reasonable than Reddit was when I tried to make that point.

People also seem to forget that the entire point of Milgram's experiments was to prove that something like that absolutely could not happen in the US. The theory was that there was something peculiar to the German people. His experiments proved the exact opposite, which was quite shocking at the time and likely part of why they are so very well known, though most people appear oblivious to the origin story.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#40

Post by dredmorbius »

ironic_ali wrote: post #23
tomohawk wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1943 - the British were in engaged in a multifront war against Germany, Italy, and Japan with their very survival in doubt. Then, Japan cut off a major food supply to Bengal. Blaming this all on Churchill is a bit much.

Have you a source for Japan cutting off it's supply of food, I'd not read about that before.

More here as well:

https://www.thoughtco.com/the-bengal-famine-of-1943-195073

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