A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother • Hacker News Board

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#11

Post by qubax » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 10:45 PM UTC

olivermarks wrote: post #6

Churchill was a notorious scoundrel, constantly in debt and bailed out by unsavoury characters https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/no-more-champ... '...On his first day at school, Winston Churchill asked his mother for more cash. She groused: “You do get through it in the most rapid manner… and the more you have the more you want to spend.” He was 13, and already he was spending more than a family “of six…

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel

The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the world hates churchill because the guy was virulently racist, genocidal and a war criminal. The things churchill said and did were no different than what hitler said and did. The first time I heard my indian colleague say something negative about churchill, I was shocked because I was so conditioned into thinking the guy represented good.

"As the resistance swelled, he announced: "I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion." This hatred killed. To give just one, major, example, in 1943 a famine broke out in Bengal, caused – as the Nobel Prize-winning economist Amartya Sen has proved – by the imperial policies of the British. Up to 3 million people starved to death while British officials begged Churchill to direct food supplies to the region. He bluntly refused. He raged that it was their own fault for "breeding like rabbits". At other times, he said the plague was "merrily" culling the population."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/not-his-fines...

Were it not for the unprecedented horrors of hitler, churchill would rank up there with the worst of the leaders of the 20th century.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#12

Post by return-value » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 10:57 PM UTC

but Winston you are old enough to see how serious this is to you—& how the next year or two & the use you make of them, will affect your whole life

She sounds like a terrible mother, but those lines aren’t wrong. I squandered a lot of my youth, and I’m paying the price now. I can’t change it, and even if I could I doubt my younger self would take it serious, but how you spend your twenties really determine how you spend the next 40 years of your life. That’s not to say you can’t change or catch up, Churchill is a testimony to that, but the hard work won’t do itself.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#13

Post by ip26 » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 10:59 PM UTC

qubax wrote: post #11

olivermarks wrote: post #6

Churchill was a notorious scoundrel, constantly in debt and bailed out by unsavoury characters https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/no-more-champ... '...On his first day at school, Winston Churchill asked his mother for more cash. She groused: “You do get through it in the most rapid manner… and the more you have the more you want to spend.” He was 13, and already he was spending more than a family “of six…

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

Many historical figures are like that. Both great & terrible. Ghandi, too, had his major flaws completely unbefitting his image.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#14

Post by philwelch » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 10:59 PM UTC

qubax wrote: post #11

olivermarks wrote: post #6

Churchill was a notorious scoundrel, constantly in debt and bailed out by unsavoury characters https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/no-more-champ... '...On his first day at school, Winston Churchill asked his mother for more cash. She groused: “You do get through it in the most rapid manner… and the more you have the more you want to spend.” He was 13, and already he was spending more than a family “of six…

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

And yet, were it not for Churchill, the unprecedented horrors of Hitler may have gone completely unchecked, or else only been stopped by the even greater horrors of Stalin.

Churchill was the cornerstone of Britain's continued resistance, and the primary reason they didn't sue for peace after the fall of France. Hitler would have let Britain and her empire survive had they left him unmolested; Churchill instead led the country down the road of stopping Hitler, ultimately at the cost of her empire.

> Up to 3 million people starved to death while British officials begged Churchill to direct food supplies to the region. He bluntly refused. He raged that it was their own fault for "breeding like rabbits".

This is an extremely common criticism of foreign aid and even private philanthropy to this day, to the point where the Gates Foundation lists it as one of the "10 tough questions" they get asked: https://www.gatesnotes.com/2018-Annual-Letter#ALChapter5

I'm not trying to whitewash or excuse Churchill, but like many other historical figures whose actions and attitudes would be repugnant to us today (including even Abraham Lincoln), his failings are not as important as his heroism, at least to those of us living in a Western world that may have fallen to totalitarianism but for Churchill's resilience. Though I certainly don't blame your Indian colleague for his own perspective.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#15

Post by philwelch » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:02 PM UTC

return-value wrote: post #12

but Winston you are old enough to see how serious this is to you—& how the next year or two & the use you make of them, will affect your whole life She sounds like a terrible mother, but those lines aren’t wrong. I squandered a lot of my youth, and I’m paying the price now. I can’t change it, and even if I could I doubt my younger self would take it serious, but how you spend your twenties really determine how you sp…

I don't think she sounds like a terrible mother at all. Sometimes a wayward son needs some tough love--and I don't think that idea was the slightest bit uncomfortable to a British mother in the Victorian era.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#16

Post by philwelch » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:04 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #9

rfinney wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stalin was a leader in the Russian (Soviet) Government late in World War I: "Stalin became part of an informal foursome leading the government, alongside Lenin, Trotsky, and Sverdlov;[183] of these, Sverdlov was regularly absent, and died in March 1919.[184] Stalin's office was based near to Lenin's in the Smolny Institute,[185] and he and Trotsky were the only individuals allowed access to Lenin's study without an a…

That was after Russia had departed from the war.

Although the rest of the Allies hastily invaded Russia in an attempt to overthrow the Bolsheviks--perhaps a bit of a side war to WWI, akin to the Russian invasions of Finland.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#17

Post by tomohawk » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:05 PM UTC

qubax wrote: post #11

olivermarks wrote: post #6

Churchill was a notorious scoundrel, constantly in debt and bailed out by unsavoury characters https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/no-more-champ... '...On his first day at school, Winston Churchill asked his mother for more cash. She groused: “You do get through it in the most rapid manner… and the more you have the more you want to spend.” He was 13, and already he was spending more than a family “of six…

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

1943 - the British were in engaged in a multifront war against Germany, Italy, and Japan with their very survival in doubt. Then, Japan cut off a major food supply to Bengal. Blaming this all on Churchill is a bit much.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#18

Post by flying_whale » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:06 PM UTC

qubax wrote: post #11

olivermarks wrote: post #6

Churchill was a notorious scoundrel, constantly in debt and bailed out by unsavoury characters https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/no-more-champ... '...On his first day at school, Winston Churchill asked his mother for more cash. She groused: “You do get through it in the most rapid manner… and the more you have the more you want to spend.” He was 13, and already he was spending more than a family “of six…

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

Wait, why is this comment being down-voted?

It's written in a respectful manner, cites a strong source, and is very much relevant to the link posted.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#19

Post by ironic_ali » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:15 PM UTC

qubax wrote: post #11

olivermarks wrote: post #6

Churchill was a notorious scoundrel, constantly in debt and bailed out by unsavoury characters https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/no-more-champ... '...On his first day at school, Winston Churchill asked his mother for more cash. She groused: “You do get through it in the most rapid manner… and the more you have the more you want to spend.” He was 13, and already he was spending more than a family “of six…

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

As a Brit, through history classes and exams, I didn't learn anything other than how brilliant Churchill was. Then in my 20's the internet appeared and Churchill's real history was there in black and white. All it did was make me question everything I'd been taught about Britain and the establishment.

Questioning everything from then on, only lead to the concrete conclusion that the British education system and establishment (aristocracy, business, corporation of London, parliament, the lord's, judiciary, the class system) was designed/evolved to keep them rich and holders of power ad infinitum.

The rest of us, the plebs, we're/are kept deliberately misinformed and devoid of virtually all the opportunities "they" had and still have.

The plebs that rise up the ranks into politics, banking and business are brought into the club and the system of corruption and ignorance continues.

The US founding fathers knew what they were doing with the declaration of Independence.

Re: A Letter From Winston Churchill’s Disappointed Mother

#20

Post by wyldfire » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:16 PM UTC

qubax wrote: post #11

olivermarks wrote: post #6

Churchill was a notorious scoundrel, constantly in debt and bailed out by unsavoury characters https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/no-more-champ... '...On his first day at school, Winston Churchill asked his mother for more cash. She groused: “You do get through it in the most rapid manner… and the more you have the more you want to spend.” He was 13, and already he was spending more than a family “of six…

> Churchill was a notorious scoundrel The topic of churchill was the first time I realized I lived in a bubble. In the US, we laud churchill as a great statesman and take pride in that he's half-american by his american mother. He's seen as, next to FDR, the most important man in the fight against nazi germany to free europe. And naively we assume the rest of the world also loves churchill. Turns out much of the worl…

Gladwell's Revisionist History podcast had an episode called "The Prime Minister and the Prof" [1]. The episode goes into Churchill's relationship with India and a friend named Frederick Lindemann. Gladwell discusses evidence from a book called, "Churchill's Secret War: The British Empire and the Ravaging of India during World War II".

[1] http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/15-the-prime-minister...