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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#471

Post by noir_lord »

gdy wrote: post #446
noir_lord wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's sorta the same, I'm broadly in favour of a CoC generally as a codified minimum standard of behaviour but I dislike intensely some of the people who then move in and use the CoC to attack everyone the disagree with (I'm not naming people because well that's not fair) often breaching the spirit of the CoC they pushed for in the first place, that or treat any discussion of whether the Coc is a good idea as a…

"I'm not naming people because well that's not fair" Why is it not fair?

Because while I think they are wrong I'd rather discuss it one to one (if at all) than in public where either camp will jump on it.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#472

Post by dleslie »

eropple wrote: post #453
dleslie wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "This code has more warnings than we accept under our process; please remedy." That fails to address the possibility that their process is broken, and so achieves the possibility of inducing technical debt when these issues will inevitably arise again. Fixing process can be as important as fixing code.

Sure. OK. Where does insulting people come into that? There have been a lot of electrons perturbed dancing around that that's what we're talking about , yes?

It doesn't? But I believe that I've made my point: it was not so simple to communicate as first suggested.

I'm not pro-insult, not by any means.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#473

Post by s73v3r_ »

smoothy2 wrote: post #459
s73v3r_ wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" there's no reason to cripple good open source software" Nobody is doing that. No one. That is not happening at all. I'm sorry, but people not being assholes to each other is not going to affect the quality of software in a negative manner.

You mean there is no loss of valuable contributions when people get Brendon Eiche'd for reasons unrelated to open source project?

You mean when someone openly says to their LGBT employees, 'You are less valuable. You are not deserving of the same basic rights as straight people. You are second class citizens'? Mozilla seems to be doing just fine.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#474

Post by mosselman »

caf wrote: post #44
mosselman wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are either a truthful asshole or a kind liar? There are no people who are kind and honest?

I don't know, but the idioms of the "white lie" and "polite fiction" certainly imply some connection between impoliteness and truth-telling, don't they?

So what? What I am saying is that there must be other possibilities. Even 1 person who is kind and honest would be enough to render what I said correct.

I was reacting to @stemc43 who said "I'd rather work with...". Why wouldn't you rather work with kind and honest people? If you are picking your ideal scenario already anyway why not pick the positive version instead of the negative one?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#475

Post by notacoward »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #464
notacoward wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "good cop, bad cop" is something you do to someone you're trying to deceive That's funny, because the goal is often to get at the truth. Is that an agenda you find objectionable? Do you see something noble in people who are harmed by the truth becoming known? "Bad cop" is not far from "devil's advocate" and the tension either creates is often useful to all involved. Is role-playing the same as deception? > It's a w…

> That's funny, because the goal is often to get at the truth. Is that an agenda you find objectionable? Yes, I think that's the wrong agenda to have when you're collaborating on software. A pull request shouldn't normally be an interrogation to figure out whether the person who wrote the code is lying.

Is lying the only alternative you can think of in this context? What about "truth" meaning the source of a bug or the best solution, with the alternative being merely ignorance of same? Seems like you're stretching pretty far to make this point.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#476

Post by davidkuhta »

vesak wrote: post #408
davidkuhta wrote: post #41

Anyone else get a chuckle that out of the myriad of relevant quotes, the author selected, "He... once [described] an Intel fix as 'complete and utter garbage'". Good for Linus, I'm happy that he's not looking to adjust his technical expectations: "technically wrong is still technically wrong, and I won't start accepting bad code just to make people feel better about themselves."

>Good for Linus, I'm happy that he's not looking to adjust his technical expectations: Did anyone seriously, with good faith and without political goals, believe that that was going to happen?

Stranger things have happened.

I've personally found an increase in instances in which I think, "The likelihood of X is so low," and then bam! X occurs.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#477

Post by mcguire »

dang wrote: post #462
mcguire wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Every community has a different culture so if you cannot adopt what everyone is following, maybe this industry is not right for you. " When I was growing up, being a nerd or a geek or, in fact, any kind of intellectual was regarded as a bad thing. I found some outright harassment, a considerable amount of belittling, and a whole lot of lack of interest. (The 57th time you are asked if you play football or basketbal…

Why on earth did you put racial slurs in your post? That's the kind of thing we ban people for on HN. Please don't do that again.

I apologize to those I have offended.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#478

Post by daveFNbuck »

notacoward wrote: post #475
daveFNbuck wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's funny, because the goal is often to get at the truth. Is that an agenda you find objectionable? Yes, I think that's the wrong agenda to have when you're collaborating on software. A pull request shouldn't normally be an interrogation to figure out whether the person who wrote the code is lying.

Is lying the only alternative you can think of in this context? What about "truth" meaning the source of a bug or the best solution, with the alternative being merely ignorance of same? Seems like you're stretching pretty far to make this point.

How does playing bad cop help you find the best solution to a bug? To me it seems like you're stretching here, so how about we just assume we're both operating in good faith?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#479

Post by kyberias »

scott_s wrote: post #439
kyberias wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dictionary definition for abuse is: "treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." I don't think Linus has ever treated anyone with cruelty or violence. Saying to someone "shut up" or that their specific work item is garbage, is not abuse.

Linus regularly and repeatedly was cruel to people when he perceived they made mistakes. Examples of his behavior are easy to find, and widely cited in any discussion on HN about it.

No, he wasn't cruel to people. If someone makes a mistake and one reacts to that with strong language is not cruel. It's actually love. People make stupid mistakes. Making them and everyone else understand that certain stuff is not acceptable is important.

Was it absolutely necessary or optimal to react that strongly? No. But not cruel.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#480

Post by trukterious »

tuesdayrain wrote: post #458
trukterious wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that there are any garbage people. Everybody has some good in them. (This doesn't imply we shouldn't set some boundaries).

Even literal garbage has some good in it. It's just usually not worth the effort of extracting it.

People aren't like resources to be harvested: they are 'ends in themselves', i.e. with their own lives and perspectives. Also, unlike an extractable resource, their goodness is variegated.
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