Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#111

Post by jawilson2 » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

vec wrote: post #52

jniedrauer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s a little taxing, but everyone involved enjoy the process This is part of the problem in the United States. Voting is a chore, and you're often going to lose money (unpaid time off) to do it. If elections were national holidays and voting was treated as a privilege instead of a chore, we would be much better off.

I live in Colorado. A couple of weeks before the midterms I'm going to get a packet in the mail containing my ballot, instructions for filling it out, a pamphlet where every candidate on the ballot gets a paragraph or two to make their case, and a prepaid return envelope. I fill out my ballot at my leisure, stuff it in the envelope, sign the envelope underneath the flap, and drop it in a mailbox. There's a receipt wi…

And in some states, like Florida, if you vote by mail it is 10x less likely to be counted.[1]

Our democracy is broken, and the people capable of fixing it are actively incentivized to keep it broken.

[1] https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-p...

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#112

Post by ericcumbee » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

RileyJames wrote: post #62

bluGill wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This actually a bad idea: The reason for in person voting is poll monitors there are watching to make sure nobody knows how you voted. There are have been cases of "vote for me or I'll break your legs". When you vote from home someone can come by and watch you mail your vote the "correct" way in.

In theory. Has this actually happened, since the introduction of postal voting, in the United States? To be useful it would be necessary to visit 10,000’s - 100,000 houses and threaten violence. The voting system does not need to resolve this issue. Threats of violence are already illegal, and any group conducting such acts at that volume would be quickly apprehended. Call the police. Can you imagine how quickly twit…

Not quite people going door to door threatening people. but with Absentee Voting by mail, there have been plenty of cases of a Candidate's family member or a party operative making the rounds of the nursing homes and special needs homes and "assisting" residents in filling out absentee ballots. Alot of these people you could make a very good argument that the voter lacks sufficient mental capacity to cast a ballot. This happens in plenty of local elections around here. Most of the cases are not really covered by the media either.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#113

Post by sebazzz » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 6:43 PM UTC

jniedrauer wrote: post #14

return-value wrote: post #6

I work for the municipality of Skanderborg, Denmark. We have what we call digital elections, but what’s digitized is the registration process. Basically every adult gets a voting card with their information + a barcode, we scan those barcodes when they turn up to receive their ballot(is that the right word for voting list?), and then they are registered. The actual voting takes place on paper, and while it takes time…

> It’s a little taxing, but everyone involved enjoy the process This is part of the problem in the United States. Voting is a chore, and you're often going to lose money (unpaid time off) to do it. If elections were national holidays and voting was treated as a privilege instead of a chore, we would be much better off.

In the Netherlands you can vote for a large part of the day, about from 7:00 in the morning to 20:00 or 21:00 hours in the evening.

How is the timing in the U.S. then?

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#114

Post by thatfrenchguy » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 6:57 PM UTC

vec wrote: post #52

jniedrauer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s a little taxing, but everyone involved enjoy the process This is part of the problem in the United States. Voting is a chore, and you're often going to lose money (unpaid time off) to do it. If elections were national holidays and voting was treated as a privilege instead of a chore, we would be much better off.

I live in Colorado. A couple of weeks before the midterms I'm going to get a packet in the mail containing my ballot, instructions for filling it out, a pamphlet where every candidate on the ballot gets a paragraph or two to make their case, and a prepaid return envelope. I fill out my ballot at my leisure, stuff it in the envelope, sign the envelope underneath the flap, and drop it in a mailbox. There's a receipt wi…

How do you know your ballot has not been changed ?

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#115

Post by specialist » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 6:59 PM UTC

kaycebasques wrote: post #41

The HN consensus seems to be that digital voting is very difficult to do right. I trust the consensus opinion, but this also makes me sad. The bigger picture that I think we’re missing here is the opportunity for huge-scale direct democracy. I know the usual debates against DD, but I think there’s ways to safeguard against those problems. E.g. you can’t vote on an issue without hearing both sides of it and passing a…

Voter fatigue is a serious downside to direct democracy. Especially within the context of our attention economy. (Which then leads to additional gaming of the system. Etc...)

I'm a huge proponent of direct democracy. But I also think we are asked to vote on way too many things.

Alas, I only have one idea for reducing the number of elections. (Which would also improve outcomes.)

Replacing our current first-post-the-post (aka winner takes all) with approval voting (for exec positions) or proportional representation (for assemblies) would consolidate our separate primary and general elections into one event.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#116

Post by moviuro » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 7:00 PM UTC

rohit2412 wrote: post #32

moviuro wrote: post #2

sigh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI

Lot of generalizations and stupid assumptions in that video, like where he argues that of course the ballots will be uploaded over the internet without any authentication/checksum. I don't see why a digital counting machine which is kept completely offline and is transported physically cannot be used, specially if we can verify it's counting functions by randomly verifying a few of those machines (also keep paper bal…

> over the internet without any authentication/checksum

As if the totally secure communications over Internet problem had been solved. Why are we seeing SO MANY issues with TLS, VPNs, hardcoded root passwords everywhere, ssh issues even!...

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#117

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 7:01 PM UTC

frickinLasers wrote: post #28

jniedrauer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We desperately need a national ID card. Social security was never designed for this purpose and it's terrible for it. Drivers license requires having access to a car and some way to learn how to use it.

I'm not particularly informed on arguments for and against this, but shouldn't a national ID require some modicum of trust in the national government? In their ability to keep the database safe from bad actors, including Executives that fancy themselves dictators? A national ID sounds like a terrible idea for this country right now.

The US doesn't have a national ID at least partly because of a revulsion toward the USSR "papers, please" restrictions on movement. The "lack of trust" in the national government has very little to do with database security.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#118

Post by monocasa » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 7:14 PM UTC

hvdhh7 wrote: post #71

mdorazio wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hang on. You want to use a counting machine, and then physically transport it around to avoid security issues instead of just using proven human counters and physically transported ballots because....???? Why? Just why? What problem is this solving? Does getting your results a few hours sooner make a single bit of difference to merit this madness?

Perhaps because counting tens of thousands of near-identical pieces of paper is exactly the sort of repetitive, robotic task we've entrusted machines to perform more accurately than humans since at least the 1940s.

You realize that the article in question is about hacks against vote tabulating machines right?

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#119

Post by sumeno » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 7:14 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #59

bradlys wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often is this an issue? Sounds like a made up scenario for the US.

It's better to worry about these things before they are problems. I don't know if it's happened in the US but it is absolutely a very common attack against voting systems, and any voting system not resistant to it should be considered suspect.

Voter suppression is an actual real world problem that happens today, not a hypothetical problem like the one you are worried about. Allowing voting by mail is an improvement to that real world problem as it reduces the barriers to voting for those that are employed in jobs that don't give time off for voting or who don't have transportation to their voting location.

Voter intimidation is already illegal and there is no indication that it is a legitimate problem in the states that have postal voting.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#120

Post by vonzeppelin » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 7:19 PM UTC

InitialLastName wrote: post #105

slg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because citizens are not required to have ID and those that don't have one are disproportionately racial minorities and/or in lower socioeconomic classes. Democrats would be much more willing to allow ID to be required to vote if there was a national ID card issued to every citizen, but Republicans would be against any system that would try to create a national ID.

Yes, the core irony that the same people: a) Want to make having an ID as a prerequisite for voting and b) Are deeply against any form of national ID card (or anything else that makes it cheap and easy to get an ID) It's almost ( almost ) like they want to prevent poor people from cities (who don't need cars) from voting.

Where is it not cheap and easy to get an ID card?