Seattle judges throw out 15 years of marijuana convictions • Hacker News Board

Re: Seattle judges throw out 15 years of marijuana convictions

#91

Post by clarkmoody » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 3:35 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #15

> "For too many who call Seattle home, a misdemeanour marijuana conviction or charge has created barriers to opportunity - good jobs, housing, loans and education," she said. The problem isn't the marijuana convictions, the problem is a society that believes people with criminal records can and should have their entire lives ruined for it. It's a society that doesn't believe in rehabilitation, just "good people" and…

Main problems I see are one step deeper:

- Too many equate "legal" with "moral" and defer to the authority of the state when it labels someone officially as a "criminal," no matter the offense. This is a deep cultural problem, and I blame compulsory state schooling for exacerbating the issue of blindly trusting the government. Deference to arbitrary authority is drilled into our young minds over many formative years. Since public school is one of the main religions of America, I don't see this changing any time soon.

- The cultural perception that justice means punishing the bad guy. Too many movies end with the villain getting killed, as if that solves the problem. If instead our culture thought of justice as making the victim whole, then entire classes of crimes would not exist, and a criminal who made restitution would be done with it. BIG NOTE HERE: people should still be able to judge whether to hire or not based on a person's history. No matter how much restitution the thief has made to past victims, for instance, a bank will probably not hire him and for good reason.

- The state should have no say in whether someone is "rehabilitated." If you think for a minute how this would play out, you will realize that it opens the door to either huge abuses by the state or completely absurd outcomes. On the one hand, if you give discretion over a person's "fitness" to reenter society to a prison warden or state bureaucrat, then you allow for unlimited jail terms for those with politically incorrect views. If you try to encode into some regulation a rubric for whether someone is rehabilitated, it will utterly fail to encapsulate the nuance that is the human mind and will lead to gaming the system almost immediately.

Re: Seattle judges throw out 15 years of marijuana convictions

#92

Post by cmrdporcupine » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 3:40 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #57

bunderbunder wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things bounced back petty quickly. It only took about 80 years for us to start having access to good beer again. More seriously - I don't think organized crime went away. It was a big problem before prohibition, and it continued to be a big problem after. However, it may have been weakened by the loss of an extremely profitable revenue source. Alcoholism dropped precipitously during prohibition, and started coming ba…

Excuse me but the wet lawn mower clippings mixed with cinnamon and spicy chai with a shot of 5w40 for texture that is currently in vogue is not "good beer". I want a beer I can drink, not one I have to endure.

It's why I just drink cider now. Hard to find quality ones, but when I do they don't involve getting punched in the face with hops.

Re: Seattle judges throw out 15 years of marijuana convictions

#93

Post by ergothus » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

clarkmoody wrote: post #91

mabbo wrote: post #15

> "For too many who call Seattle home, a misdemeanour marijuana conviction or charge has created barriers to opportunity - good jobs, housing, loans and education," she said. The problem isn't the marijuana convictions, the problem is a society that believes people with criminal records can and should have their entire lives ruined for it. It's a society that doesn't believe in rehabilitation, just "good people" and…

Main problems I see are one step deeper: - Too many equate "legal" with "moral" and defer to the authority of the state when it labels someone officially as a "criminal," no matter the offense. This is a deep cultural problem, and I blame compulsory state schooling for exacerbating the issue of blindly trusting the government. Deference to arbitrary authority is drilled into our young minds over many formative years.…

> Too many equate "legal" with "moral" and defer to the authority of the state when it labels someone officially as a "criminal," no matter the offense.

This is s huge point, and not just in drug convictions. If someone us poor and gets a warrant on the for unpaid parking fines, that is used in any public debate about them to show they are of low moral character. Reverse the issue and executives that settled charges without admitting fault are without sin, because obviously it was all legal.

If the US wants to truly embrace the ideals of free speech, then we must also accept that there will be actions that are immoral but legal.

Re: Seattle judges throw out 15 years of marijuana convictions

#94

Post by Bjartr » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #31

mabbo wrote: post #15

> "For too many who call Seattle home, a misdemeanour marijuana conviction or charge has created barriers to opportunity - good jobs, housing, loans and education," she said. The problem isn't the marijuana convictions, the problem is a society that believes people with criminal records can and should have their entire lives ruined for it. It's a society that doesn't believe in rehabilitation, just "good people" and…

No offense, but many with criminal convictions are bad people. I know it may be nice to think otherwise. However there just are many people out there who are difficult if it not impossible to fully integrate into society. then you run into not society but government issues as well. just some examples my cousins run into all the time, they have to use temporary agencies to filter people and stock crews each week. Why?…

> many with criminal convictions are bad people.

In addition to what others are saying, I'll also point out that many with criminal convictions merely made bad or stupid decisions many years (even decades) ago. To put too much weight on that is to commit the fundamental attribution error[1].

Further, in our justice system there are plenty of innocent people who were convinced to take plea bargains to avoid risking much worse sentences that they don't have a good enough lawyer to do them justice. This is especially true for poor people relying on overworked public defenders. Better to just take the six months than risk 10 years and not get to experience your children growing up.

If any of what I've said above is untrue, I would love someone with more direct experience in the justice system to chime in.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

Re: Seattle judges throw out 15 years of marijuana convictions

#95

Post by Bjartr » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 3:43 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #37

Shivetya wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense, but many with criminal convictions are bad people. I know it may be nice to think otherwise. However there just are many people out there who are difficult if it not impossible to fully integrate into society. then you run into not society but government issues as well. just some examples my cousins run into all the time, they have to use temporary agencies to filter people and stock crews each week. Why?…

> No offense, but many with criminal convictions are bad people... So are many people without criminal convictions. That's one of life's Great Aporias.

For those like me who don't know, and aporia is an irresolvable contradiction.

Re: Seattle judges throw out 15 years of marijuana convictions

#96

Post by ergothus » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

staticautomatic wrote: post #79

reefoctopus wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence to support this? I’ve never heard of anybody being sued for that reason.

As someone who works on lawsuits for a living I join in your question. People make a lot of assumptions about employment lawsuits that I, as something of an insider, don't see IRL. I can at least say that this particular issue has never come up in any employment suit I've ever worked on. It may well be true that employers do certain things because they're afraid of being sued, but I'm not convinced that those fears a…

> People make a lot of assumptions about employment lawsuits that I, as something of an insider, don't see IRL

Yet US based HR decisions aren't based on informed awareness, but instead fear. Consider what people "know" about the McDonalds hot coffee lawsuit, and what kind of training or legal advice most hr depts get (again, in the US. My understanding is that done other countries actually have standards for hr training)

Re: Seattle judges throw out 15 years of marijuana convictions

#97

Post by Bjartr » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #63

Joe-Z wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but if you spent 10 years in prison for a bank robbery, you're probably are not going to get hired at a bank after the background check I kind of find this example hilarious. It‘s not like people rob banks out of passion. They probably were in dire straits at the time and saw no other solution. Now this person uses her time in jail to get the education necessary to work in a bank and you wouldn‘t hire her (providing…

>They probably were in dire straits at the time and saw no other solution. So what happens if they get in dire straits while working at the bank with far greater levels of access to all sorts of financial information?

What if that happens to any other employee? How many of them have experienced that before to know that they wouldn't have done the same? How many of them have been in those positions and did commit crime, but didn't get convicted? Having someone with criminal experience can also provide value as they would know what what to look for to find others who would do the same. Frank Abagnale Jr. being the extreme example of this.

Re: Seattle judges throw out 15 years of marijuana convictions

#98

Post by Bjartr » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 3:49 PM UTC

orasis wrote: post #81

mabbo wrote: post #15

> "For too many who call Seattle home, a misdemeanour marijuana conviction or charge has created barriers to opportunity - good jobs, housing, loans and education," she said. The problem isn't the marijuana convictions, the problem is a society that believes people with criminal records can and should have their entire lives ruined for it. It's a society that doesn't believe in rehabilitation, just "good people" and…

I’m just commenting on the “bad people” part, but at 40 years old I’ve seen enough people remain completely stuck in their dysfunctional patterns to have very little faith in rehabilitation.

I see people say things like this, but I don't understand it. Why is the subject so obviously at fault and not the process? At 30 years old it all just sounds more like "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!" than anything more sincere.

Re: Seattle judges throw out 15 years of marijuana convictions

#99

Post by Bjartr » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 3:55 PM UTC

caseyscottmckay wrote: post #32

onetimemanytime wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious: don't these people still have to report the arrests in some forms /for some jobs even if they're vacated? "Have you ever been arrested or jailed..." I know US immigration specifically asks to mention even if pardoned or expunged.

Yes, a criminal record never leaves you even if "expunged" or otherwise deleted from your record. First, you have to admit to it with many jobs/other things anyway (e.g., fbi, military, bar exam etc). And it's usually worse to lie about the charge. Second, everything is documented on the internet. Thus, even if you're eventually proven innocent and never had anything to do with the criminal charge, it will still be a…

> it will still be associated with you throughout life.

This is why I feel we should be pushing towards a culture that accepts that people can make mistakes.

Re: Seattle judges throw out 15 years of marijuana convictions

#100

Post by dcole2929 » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 4:10 PM UTC

This is absolutely great and needs to happen in many more places. One of the worst parts about the draconian mandatory sentencing laws so many places have is that prison turns otherwise good people into criminals. It's almost like the entire process was designed to be that way. Not only is prison itself a harsh environment that treats people like chattel, and often forces people to make morally suspect decisions to ensure their own survival. But once they're released they're given a scarlet letter that prevents them from integrating back into society. They can't find jobs, and sometimes even housing. They're finances and credit are generally in ruins from abruptly losing everything. It's no wonder so many people re-offend and generally for worse offenses. The system takes away everything and prevents them from even attempting to claw there way back. And to top it off there are these ridiculously long probationary periods where the smallest offense can land one back in prison. Oh and lastly they take away you're right to vote so you become literally an invisible member of society as far as politicians are concerned. But hey drugs are bad, and anyone who does drugs is bad /s.