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Hire people who aren’t proven

leonardofed.io

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Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would being a doctor be better in a system where there was /only/ a choice of either single payer or bring your own all-cash payment? (No 'insurance' at all.)

I don't know, to be honest. I know a lot of docs blame insurance for this, but I've worked in health policy and insurance - the problems are bigger than that. A lot of the documentation is an attempt to create "quality standards". I like that in theory, and it's independent of what kind of payment mechanism is used, but ... docs will have a riot if we're held accountable for final outcomes ("This guy has had 30 docs…

That's a little outside of the specific question I was asking, so I feel like an addition is warranted; I'll try to return to the main topic where possible as well.

My outside knowledge is that a medical facility focuses on: diagnosis, confirmation of diagnosis, selection of treatment along with annotations about EXCEPTIONS to standard treatment, finally actual treatment. I'd like for doctors to focus more on the keen observation and decision parts and would not mind automated transcription of doctor / patient interactions to be reviewed and possibly have a summary forward (but not replacement of actual data) added by other staff. That might be an opportunity to hire/train other types of staff and gain experience in a more concrete way; much like the source article wants to make it easier for potential experts to grow in to a job.

If there's a typical outcome given an input it's important to document the decisions that affected the selection of non-generic courses of action - exceptions are things that should be known in the future. That's something that any worker should do.

The NTSB, as seen in a different recent hacker-news linked article, has excellent postmortems, even for incidents which only came close to being disastrous. A cascade of failures and lack of good decision processes seem to be the typical cause and review with recommendations on how to prevent them from occurring in the future is good. An honest mistake or poor circumstances for otherwise good people are worthy of overlooking and avoiding in the future. Lack of training can be identified and refresher courses or other supplementary training can improve the situation for everyone. Much like making sure someone is addressing problems in their job and growing to accommodate the required work.

Though there might be a bad fit for a job; either someone not able to do the expected work of an individual in that position, a job that's poorly defined and/or not broken up in to manageable units of work, or a worker that is a bad actor to some degree. All of those defects are situations that review and recommendations for remediation should address and resolve.

In your specific case, I believe having a single payer system would improve the outcome related to the above considerations. Affected individuals would still be covered by 'the system', good doctors would not be burdened by specific negative outcomes that happened to occur under their care, and bad workers of any type would be removed.

The actual outcome of individual patients shouldn't factor in to compensation. However addressing that in detail is clearly off the main topic.

I think it is both ethical and practical to recognize and classify cases that are bad fits for a given worker and to attempt to route them to someone that is a proper fit; while providing the best intermediate care and transition possible.

Also of note is that for a 'single payer' system the costs SHOULD be divorced from the actual treatment; though might be a considered criteria when a given standard of treatment is selected.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#403
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in most high-end professional fields, that's not true. Yeah, for some reason, when you're interviewing as a forensic pathologist, mentioning that you're cutting up partially decomposed bodies in your spare time does NOT count as a positive. I still think there is value in looking for passion in people, but maybe passion for craftsmanship in a field other than software should count equally well.

Except software is one of the only high-paying careers where you can get by purely on merit with no formal education. I'll take our, sometimes ridiculous, interview processes over requiring X, Y, and Z degree, certificate, etc...

It's a trade-off: our way may be better for breaking in, but other ways are better for fostering long and satisfying careers.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#404

> 1. Can this candidate do the job? I'd go so far as to ask: "can this candidate learn to do the job?". In our recent job postings, I've started adding a specific paragraph after the desired qualifications stating more or less "if you don't tick all the boxes above but are motivated to learn and grow, please apply. We'll teach you what you need to do the job" > 2. Will this candidate be motivated? This. Even more tha…

Duh. But also, how do you actually test objectively for this without introducing bias? And how do you insure you're not creating a monoculture that will eventually harden into navel-gazing and dogma? I'm really of two minds on this topic.

Give them a simplified version of a class that represents what you do everyday with failing unit tests. Have them pair program with another developer to make the unit tests pass.

Then once they do that...

Give them another set of unit tests for the same set of problems and add more requirements. They have to make the second set pass without breaking the first set.

It’s realistic, you can see how they think through a problem, and you can see how well they work with others.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#405
post #364
post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

It just seems like false dichotomy to me. The idea that you must project passion the right way else you don't care. I think it did not worked that way on 90ties either. Also, people who stayed in this industry long do care generally. There is also something good to he said about people who understand importance of boring tasks and negotiation and planning and process and do those boring tasks.

I think the term "passion" has been abused a lot to mean being excited and loudly proclaiming "I am so passionate. I love it.". I am not likely that and I dont expect to be like that. With passion I mean the desire to learn and do a good job just because it makes life more interesting. I work around 40 hours a week and I try to make this time as interesting and enjoyable as possible. To me that means to do a good job and improve as much as possible. Once I am on my way home I don't think about work anymore.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#406
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, if a candiate is ready to be an asshole in an interview, what are the chances that he will be an asshole to his team members to just get that raise or a promotion?

He's not being an asshole. He's probably stressed out and doesn't know how to cope well. This is behavior that can be addressed and improved. After 20 years and hiring 100+ developers through three exits and an IPO, I've only met 1 actual "asshole" that couldn't integrate and needed to be let go. The problem is that we're too quick to be offended and we look for excuses. I'm in the middle of hiring a business analyst…

He's not being an asshole. He's probably stressed out and doesn't know how to cope well.

Life is stressful, work is stressful. My manager and his manager are reasonable people but after my second assignment, they said I missed a requirement and that it was a “big f’ up”. Guess what? I found that refreshing after dealing with managers that beat around the bush and you had to constantly try to figure out what they were thinking - or even worse, they didn’t tell you anything until your review.

I’ve had to whiteboard architecture in front of CxOs, be interviewed by potential investors, etc. It’s when things get stressful that you really need people who can keep their wits about themselves.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#407
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is me. I graduated last year and work at a small consulting shop doing web apps. I'm currently interviewing and getting offers from more established companies. This is the first time I've felt bad about leaving a company after one year. My coworkers are awesome. But the benefits suck, the clients are a nightmare, pay isn't great. I feel like I would be a fool to stay.

What happened when you asked for better compensation after a year?

Owners said they wanted to pay me more but couldn't afford to right now. Dangled a `maybe in 6months` in front of me.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not being an asshole. He's probably stressed out and doesn't know how to cope well. This is behavior that can be addressed and improved. After 20 years and hiring 100+ developers through three exits and an IPO, I've only met 1 actual "asshole" that couldn't integrate and needed to be let go. The problem is that we're too quick to be offended and we look for excuses. I'm in the middle of hiring a business analyst…

He's not being an asshole. He's probably stressed out and doesn't know how to cope well. Life is stressful, work is stressful. My manager and his manager are reasonable people but after my second assignment, they said I missed a requirement and that it was a “big f’ up”. Guess what? I found that refreshing after dealing with managers that beat around the bush and you had to constantly try to figure out what they were…

> they said I missed a requirement and that it was a “big f’ up”

It's free to say things, doesn't make it true. Too often we assume because someone is in a position of power - or is wealthy - that whatever they say must be true. It's not. Sure, we have to nod our heads and pretend it is to keep the job but that still doesn't change the reality.

Shit rolls down hill with exponential momentum. I've seen many instances where a CEO says something innocuous like "I'm a bit disappointed in X" but by the time it gets to someone that can fix it the management in between transformed it from a simple comment into a condemnation. People like to exaggerate things to make something seem more important or impactful than it really is.

There's also a big difference between an interview and dealing with work everyday. I know plenty of people that shine under the pressure of interviews but not under the job itself (and visa versa). You cannot determine these things about a person from an interview. Period. Performance in an interview has very little correlation to job performance (if any).

> you really need people who can keep their wits about themselves.

I need a diverse group of people that I can collaborate with to get things done. If they can't keep their wits about, it's my job to deal with that issue and get them back on track and protect them from organizational crap. Might as well expect every girl or guy you date to be a model with a PhD.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#409
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could, instead of relying on a resume to determine if someone can do X, ask them to do some X instead of an interview, and then use an objective rubric to decide if they did X to some level of satisfaction. This is called work sample testing and it works great.

I think that only works for the most trivial things. You can do a work sample test for 'can this person add a view to a Rails app', but not for example for 'can this person build a team and develop a solution to a complex technical problem in a specific domain'.

On the contrary, it works for substantial jobs. I used it for hiring security engineers with great success. I then used it for project manager and manager of compliance, and it worked with astonishing success. In particular, the compliance manager job is _mostly_ about getting results from people across the organization that do not report to them.

Folks have built highly specialized company teams with this and little or no interviews.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#410

I don't see how 'hire people who aren't proven' can be compatible with 'can this candidate do the job'. You want to know if they can do the job, but you aren't interested in any proof for that?

Check this real-world example out: https://sockpuppet.org/blog/2015/03/06/the-hiring-post/

and CISO of LinkedIn, Cory Scott: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/evaluating-technical-talent-t...

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