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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#421

Post by jbob2000 »

sumeno wrote: post #417
jbob2000 wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents joke about that with my brother and I; "Dammit jbob, we should have aborted you!". Jokes like these require context and when you look at them from the outside, they look terrible. It's not "necessary", but then again, neither is 90% of human communication, my parents could have just said "You. Bad action. Fix." That seems to be what's missing from this whole SJW movement; context. These people watch from t…

Just because there are contexts where it wouldn't be bad doesn't mean that the example fits that narrow context.

You asked when it would be ok for a leader to tell someone they should be aborted and I gave you an example. Don’t throw away the example just because you don’t like it or it doesn’t fit your theory.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#422

Post by munin »

ethbro wrote: post #322
mikeash wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also why Washington and Lincoln were able to effect change. Wait a minute.... In any case, you’re missing the point. The point is that if you use someone’s incivility as an excuse to behave badly, you’re not doing it right. It’s fine if you don’t like them, it’s fine if you want them do change their approach, but if they push you away from treating people well, that’s on you , not them.

I'd argue neither Washington nor Lincoln initiated hostilities. So yes, both took a non-violent path until it could not be avoided. Furthermore, both had substantial popular support, larger political apparatus backing them (the Continental Congress and remaining US Congress respectively), and almost lost. I could care less about me . I care about the masses out there who are swayed by civility -- if you show me a pat…

> I'd argue neither Washington nor Lincoln initiated hostilities

Why did Lincoln resupply Fort Sumter? If he did not want to initiate hostilities, he could have evacuated it.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#423

Post by s73v3r_ »

davidkuhta wrote: post #41

Anyone else get a chuckle that out of the myriad of relevant quotes, the author selected, "He... once [described] an Intel fix as 'complete and utter garbage'". Good for Linus, I'm happy that he's not looking to adjust his technical expectations: "technically wrong is still technically wrong, and I won't start accepting bad code just to make people feel better about themselves."

Nobody, anywhere, for any of these projects, has ever suggested that bad code be accepted just to make someone feel better. That has always been an excuse used by the anti-CoC people, and has always been without merit.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#424

Post by s73v3r_ »

elorant wrote: post #53
rectang wrote: post #4

It's interesting that Torvalds describes himself as "not a people person", when he's a gifted communicator who has been tremendously successful at managing the community around Linux over many years. His current refinements are making a great thing even better.

A community of programmers isn't the same as a community of average Joes. Engineers care about facts not so much about sentiment. That is why you can be harsh and still get the message through. Trying doing that in the general public though won't work. If you notice politicians always talk to the public like they're imbeciles. Short, easy to remember messages without a lot of technicalities. Quite the opposite of the…

"Engineers care about facts not so much about sentiment."

Some engineers do. But all are still people who have feelings, and the sentiment of the message can definitely affect and hurt them.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#425

Post by mooseburger »

notacoward wrote: post #238
simias wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be garbage people in "your camp", whatever that camp might be. Hell, for some people in "your camp" you'll be the nasty one. The big problem with the internet and modern social networks is that they suck at filtering the noise and getting the interesting bits. In the end if we're not careful we only hear those who shout the loudest and most provocative things. A well researched essay on gender studi…

> for some people in "your camp" you'll be the nasty one. I'll go one further. "The nasty one" is a role that usually begs to be filled, even in a good cause. Sometimes it's even essential to progress. "Good cop, bad cop" works. I'm more likely to play "bad cop" myself, though at least I'm usually aware of it being a situational role. I've definitely said things that would have violated a CoC if there had been one in…

Who are these people in open-source that have been getting away with bigotry and harassment? No, Linus chewing someone out isn't harassment.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#426

Post by yashap »

gwbas1c wrote: post #420
yashap wrote: post #33

His quotes about political correctness are pretty interesting. Basically that neo-Nazis have tried to brand themselves as “just practical people against excessive political correctness,” but really that’s just a facade covering their true hate and racism. But now, if you’re ACTUALLY just someone who’s against excessive political correctness, you risk being associated with neo-Nazis. I’d consider myself pretty left-wi…

> Basically that neo-Nazis have tried to brand themselves as “just practical people against excessive political correctness,” Don't conflate the alt-right with neo-nazis. Neo-nazis are people who explicitly define themselves as such. Other people who have the mindset that leads to things like nazism don't realize it. They really aren't trying to hide anything; they just have certain fears and concerns that the left i…

FWIW, I was referring to actual neo-Nazi types, people with a real hatred for other races, who try to put it behind a facade of standard conservatism. Similar to what Linus was talking about here:

> Because I may have my reservations about excessive political correctness, but honestly, I absolutely do not want to be seen as being in the same camp as the low-life scum on the internet that think it's OK to be a white nationalist Nazi, and have some truly nasty misogynistic, homophobic or transphobic behaviour. And those people were complaining about too much political correctness too, and in the process just making my public stance look bad.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#427

Post by s73v3r_ »

matz1 wrote: post #188
eropple wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are highlighting the false dichotomy that a lot of folks in this thread--and, if I'm being frank, not for good, decent, or ethical reasons--are piling in on. You can do something that makes people upset without being an asshole. It's really that simple. "No, I won't merge this pull request because of X, Y, and Z." Somebody's probably not going to be happy. But you have not needed to stoop to insulting them. You h…

Is it better to train myself to not be affected with insult ? If some one say to me "No, you stupid pile of sheet, I won't merge this pull request because of X, Y, and Z." I'll just ignore the insult part or at very least to not let myself negatively affected and move on.

No, because you're never going to do that, and in trying, you're probably going to cause yourself to send out more insults to others. You're also going to normalize a culture of calling everyone a "stupid pile of sheet" or worse when something goes wrong, which leads to a pretty unwelcoming and hostile atmosphere.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#428

Post by pseudalopex »

furgooswft13 wrote: post #381
Millennium wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are afraid of being cast out of the community because of the CoC, are they not?

I guess for what they'd consider unjust and bullshity reasons that have nothing to do with the project, yes. Publicised instances such as donglegate, opalgate, drupalgate, Brendan Eich all fit that mold. But really I'm just wondering when you say things like "they did drag us down and ruin things for everybody", who exactly are you talking about? Examples? Every group will have its pariahs but I don't see hacker cult…

In the "dongle" incident, both the men who made the jokes and the woman who tweeted about it were fired. People in the community seem to think it was badly handled all around. Someone on HN recently mentioned that the jokers found new jobs right away but the tweeter didn't.

If "Opalgate" means the attempt to remove Elia Schito, it failed.

If "Drupalgate" means the removal of Larry Garfield, he insisted on bringing elements of his fetish subculture into technical events.

Brendan Eich remained CTO of Mozilla even after his material support for discrimination became widely known. People opposed his promotion to CEO because his actions cast doubt on his ability to represent Mozilla's values and to look out for the interests of LGBT employees. He chose not to distance himself from his past decisions and eventually to resign. According to Mozilla, he declined to stay in another C-level role. He's currently the CEO of another company in the same market.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#429

Post by scott_s »

kyberias wrote: post #314
scott_s wrote: post #92

Something I don't think he has internalized yet is that it's not about "politeness" or "cursing." It's about abuse , which is still possible while being polite and without cursing.

Have you internalized that cursing is not necessarily abuse? Linus has basically just being angry to people and cursed.

Insulting people based on the work they produce is abuse.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#430

Post by odessacubbage »

Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

gonna level with you, there's nothing that feels more alienating & delegitimizing than someone overcompensating with niceness because of who you are.
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