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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#401

Post by fucking_tragedy »

notacoward wrote: post #238
simias wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be garbage people in "your camp", whatever that camp might be. Hell, for some people in "your camp" you'll be the nasty one. The big problem with the internet and modern social networks is that they suck at filtering the noise and getting the interesting bits. In the end if we're not careful we only hear those who shout the loudest and most provocative things. A well researched essay on gender studi…

> for some people in "your camp" you'll be the nasty one. I'll go one further. "The nasty one" is a role that usually begs to be filled, even in a good cause. Sometimes it's even essential to progress. "Good cop, bad cop" works. I'm more likely to play "bad cop" myself, though at least I'm usually aware of it being a situational role. I've definitely said things that would have violated a CoC if there had been one in…

"Good cop, bad cop" relies on an abusive dynamic that's contingent on a heavy imbalance of power and the threat of receiving potentially severe punishment.

That type of behavior has no place in a team setting.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#402

Post by gwbas1c »

I'm far from perfect and have made plenty of poor comments.

IMO, these happen when there is an underlying organizational problem. It's not tolerance of bad behavior that's the problem, tolerance of bad behavior just means that the organization is unwilling to address the real problems.

In my direct experience, I was part of an organization that didn't train newcomers in process or define clear divisions of labor. The organization made no effort to accommodate it's need for uninterrupted programmer time.

As the organization fixed its management problems, I got less feedback about these kind of remarks. It also helped that when these kinds of remarks happen, management realized it is not doing its part to direct the organization well.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#403

Post by JohnBooty »

cgriswald wrote: post #363
JohnBooty wrote: post #323

> I'm still not exactly the most empathetic person. > But I'm hoping I can at least 'fake it until I > make it'. This is great! If you ask me, "faking it" is really just as good as "actually" being a more helpful or empathetic person. What do you think "actually" being a helpful or empathetic person is like? It's basically just continually expending the effort to be helpful and empathetic. Let's say my brother calls…

> If you ask me, "faking it" is really just as good as "actually" being a more helpful or empathetic person. It is important to make the distinction between this and what Linus actually said, which was "fake it *until I make it" (emphasis added). The latter is essentially practice or exercise to develop empathy. The former is essentially how high-functioning psychopaths work. > Let's say my brother calls me up on a S…

    > It is important to make the distinction between this and what Linus actually said, which was "fake it *until I make it" (emphasis added). The latter is essentially practice or exercise to develop empathy. The former is essentially how high-functioning psychopaths work.
Wow. Psychopathy is not a formally recognized or defined term, so it's hard to talk about without being completely sidetracked by trying to define it.

While it's certainly possible to exercise all of the things we're talking about (empathy, kindness, etc) for nefarious purposes ("I'm going to figure out Mrs. Smith's feelings and try to understand them... so that I can get close to her and con her out of her life's savings!") I really don't think that's what we're talking about here.

    > You haven't really made a comparison here, because you just say, "I want to help him." What is your motivation? You can definitely help him without having any empathy for him at all.
I'm saying they're the same thing. If you want to contrast them because you want to convince me that they're different, sure! Go ahead! That's your job.

    > Empathy doesn't mean "being nice" or "being helpful".
Sure, absolutely. That's why I consistently mentioned them as being distinct things, ie "helpful OR empathetic." Seems like we're on the same page for this one.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#404

Post by devit »

I think the explanation for Linus' behavior is this: when he looks at works that he believes are technically wrong, he's probably displeased, frustrated and afraid that other contributions with the same technical issues might go through unnoticed.

As a result, he sometimes insults the code and the person, probably because that relieves those negative emotions, "compensates" for the pain he had to endure reviewing the technically wrong work and makes his opinion as loud as possible so that the likelihood that other contributions have the same issues is minimized.

The solution is for him to be more emotionally accepting of the fact that some people are technically less skilled and some contributions are not well done and just accept the negative feelings without having to insult others to compensate, while also expressing better when he feels that a mistake should be carefully avoided in the future as it might otherwise happen again.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#405

Post by sumeno »

maxxxxx wrote: post #68
matthewmacleod wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Sure. But in reality as a leader you sometimes have to be willing to piss off some people. You can't always be nice. Sometimes you have to draw a clear boundary.

What is the scenario where it is necessary for a leader to tell someone they should have been aborted?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#406

Post by notacoward »

fucking_tragedy wrote: post #401
notacoward wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for some people in "your camp" you'll be the nasty one. I'll go one further. "The nasty one" is a role that usually begs to be filled, even in a good cause. Sometimes it's even essential to progress. "Good cop, bad cop" works. I'm more likely to play "bad cop" myself, though at least I'm usually aware of it being a situational role. I've definitely said things that would have violated a CoC if there had been one in…

"Good cop, bad cop" relies on an abusive dynamic that's contingent on a heavy imbalance of power and the threat of receiving potentially severe punishment. That type of behavior has no place in a team setting.

> contingent on a heavy imbalance of power

Only if you forget that it's a metaphor. I suppose there's always someone who will take things super-literally and complain that the literal version doesn't match the current situation exactly, as a way of scoring points.

Well, guess what? I don't actually carry a badge and wear a blue uniform either, and I'm not suggesting that anyone here should. Nonetheless, I've been in many situations where having one person play skeptic/adversary and another play advocate can be productive. Not everyone is good at poking holes in their own idea so they can be fixed, or at defending their own decisions in an unfamiliar environment where others might have more expertise. Sometimes it's more extreme vs. moderate than aligned vs. opposed, but it still works. As I've pointed out in another thread, it's how our (USA) justice system works. It's how a thesis defense works. It's not the right approach for every situation, but it's not invalid either.

Or maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here, to see how much others follow their own advice to act collaboratively. ;)

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#407

Post by notacoward »

whiddershins wrote: post #375
notacoward wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly believe you are misunderstanding my comments. Linus himself might indeed only be concerned with the extreme "Storm Front types" as you say, but the topic for the last three comments prior to yours was the people who act offended by his actions. Subconscious bias is relevant to them, even if it's not to him.

You literally wrote an assertion regarding what Linus thinks in the original comment.

Yes, and that assertion had nothing to do with subconscious bias. You're conflating statements made in different contexts. Why? What useful outcome do you expect from that?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#408

Post by vesak »

davidkuhta wrote: post #41

Anyone else get a chuckle that out of the myriad of relevant quotes, the author selected, "He... once [described] an Intel fix as 'complete and utter garbage'". Good for Linus, I'm happy that he's not looking to adjust his technical expectations: "technically wrong is still technically wrong, and I won't start accepting bad code just to make people feel better about themselves."

>Good for Linus, I'm happy that he's not looking to adjust his technical expectations:

Did anyone seriously, with good faith and without political goals, believe that that was going to happen?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#409

Post by jbob2000 »

sumeno wrote: post #405
maxxxxx wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But in reality as a leader you sometimes have to be willing to piss off some people. You can't always be nice. Sometimes you have to draw a clear boundary.

What is the scenario where it is necessary for a leader to tell someone they should have been aborted?

My parents joke about that with my brother and I; "Dammit jbob, we should have aborted you!". Jokes like these require context and when you look at them from the outside, they look terrible. It's not "necessary", but then again, neither is 90% of human communication, my parents could have just said "You. Bad action. Fix."

That seems to be what's missing from this whole SJW movement; context. These people watch from the sidelines, pick up on a few "trigger" words, and then burn your house down because they didn't understand the context of your comment.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#410

Post by iagovar »

colemickens wrote: post #302
spaniard89277 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work with women, I don't think they are that stupid they cannot handle it. It must be something else. Definitely none of them cried or left because we get to the point in the meetings, or I don't compliment them before criticizing their work. I think not working like this may be even weird for some of my foreign coworkers.

I can't tell if people defending Linus's behavior are unaware of how overly abusive it was (not "to the point"), or are intentionally misportraying it in this thread. The things Linus has said on LKML would be fireable offenses at most companies and I'm having a mini anxiety thing at the number of people here who desperately want an excuse to be unrepentant assholes.

We know that Linus is way stupid sometimes. But he is good, so we tolerate it. The cost of opportunity of not having him is greather than some people offended.

Even if he wasn't, I'd accept that from time to time people do make mistakes and behaves stupid, and life goes on.

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