Hire people who aren’t proven • Hacker News Board

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#221

Post by Thu27Sep » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 4:22 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #29

maxxxxx wrote: post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

By all means, you should use whatever criteria you would like to hire your own staff. But in general, I would encourage folks in computer tech industries to be hesitant to assume such a binary approach to evaluating prospects. "Did you code for fun in high school?" might be a useful question now, because software development as a field is so young that high school students can try out significant work easily. But in…

The medical resident analogy can't be used as an umbrella example proving that it's absurd to look for passion on a personal level. There are other professions where passion is almost always expected. Car mechanics are all about cars; plane pilots are all about planes; academics are all about whatever their subject is; architects are all about buildings and houses; anyone on the artistry side is all about their art. I believe that most engineers also have quite passion about their craft. Don't get a civil engineer started on how bridges stand unless your afternoon is free.

In a sense I feel that this current trend of promoting software development as "just a job" is yet another step in the ditch that is forming between the ideal of "software engineering" and the reality of "software development". It's the way things are going and I have no strong feeling about it one way or another, but it seems obvious to me that employers would be more attracted to someone with passion for the craft, as well as fellow passionate wanting to work among a crowd like them.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#222

Post by benkovy » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

As an unproven, but extremely passionate and motivated person (who is literally 2 hours away from going into his first Software Developer interview), I found this calming. If I don't get this position I really hope I find a company with the same ideals portrayed in this article.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#223

Post by nbardy » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 4:26 PM UTC

jondubois wrote: post #199

maxxxxx wrote: post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

>> Now someone who has 10 years AND cares is rare but pure gold. As someone who started programming from a young age and has almost 10 years of commercial experience, I have to say that being in this industry is horrible. If they promoted people using a random number generator, it would be a step up from what we have now. The most horrible thing is that in spite of your passion and experience, your ideas are constant…

The bias for promoting people who build massive card houses is frustrating. I've found myself cleaning up the mess my manager left behind pushing through whatever feature he used to get promoted countless times. And then getting pressure by that same manager when there is too much tech debt in the code base they left behind.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#224

Post by lordnacho » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 4:26 PM UTC

I find this is incompatible with the list of 4 questions:

> Cut luck out of your system.

You can't decide to do that. If you're a small company, you are only sampling a little bit and luck will either help you or hurt you. If you are large, the law of large numbers will give you something like the average. You can't decide if you're small or large.

As for finding people who are proven, it's up to you what level you are after. If you want anyone who'd played division 3 football, you have a reasonably large number of candidates. If you have a left back who's played Champions League and is under 25, you have a small number of candidates.

Try to go with larger sets, because then the LLN will help you. Don't ask for anyone who's played any sport for your football team, just anyone who has played football to the level you need.

Another important thing to think about is how to work with the great mass of ordinary people. At some stage if things go well, you may have to engage with people who are not wanting to spend 80 hours at your office, or who don't spend their weekends contributing to exactly the projects your firm is interested in, and who maybe aren't even all that interested in what you do. Motivating such teams has been a major value-add for a large number of household names.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#225

Post by Loughla » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 4:28 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #200

ergothus wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Passionate" in programming is shorthand for "cares for quality" AND "will improve on their own". Companies are unwilling or unable to train on the job (because it requires tech mentor resources they dont have /wont spare) so they are looking for people they can drop in and see payout for without further investment (particularly in time). I think it is a shortsighted strategy, but not one without basis. The supply pr…

When hiring managers talk about “passion” what they usually mean is that they want to hire a geek who is willing to work crazy hours because of a love of programming and won’t dare negotiate for higher pay or leave for a job that will pay them more.

You just 100% nailed it.

Saying that you shouldn't hire people because they're only in it for a paycheck and not passion is just shorthand for I want you to make this your life, but not pay you to make it your life.

Subsequently, what I've seen is that most problems in the field of k-12 education in the states can be tied to this sentiment.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#226

Post by zschuessler » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 4:28 PM UTC

technofiend wrote: post #182

zschuessler wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My team has had this issue in hiring. Much of it is due to bootcamps telling students they will make massive salaries after a 6-month course. That has attracted a different crowd of applicants. We are always open to junior engineers, but lately it has been rough interviewing them. It's common to see applicants with no real world experience asking for $100/hour. About half didn't have a portfolio anywhere, but said th…

You ever read any of Michael Lewis' work? He's written several books now that are thematically similar but he's famous for writing an expose of Wall Street's Solomon Brothers called "Liar's Poker". It was fairly critical of Wall Street and its practices but was also filled with lurid descriptions of what the traders got up to with their new found wealth. He was regularly contacted for years afterwards by people wonde…

I have not but much appreciate you taking the time to recommend it! Looks like a good read, I just purchased it.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#227

Post by maxxxxx » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 4:28 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

I want to add: I don't think "caring" means that somebody coded from early youth on or works another 40 hours per week on side projects. All I mean is that somebody is curious about the systems he/she is working with, explores things, stays at least a little informed about latest trends, maybe reads some blogs, thinks about ways to do things better, is able to criticize himself/herself (it's a good sign to be embarrassed about something you did years ago), learns more about the tools he/she is using than strictly necessary, tries to understand the bigger picture.

All this can be done in a 40 hours week. No need for overtime or starting at age of 3.

During a one year project I see a lot of people who barely grow during that time. Others grow a lot because they put in a little extra mental effort. That's the people I like to work with.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#228

Post by dntrkv » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 4:29 PM UTC

microtherion wrote: post #86

snowwrestler wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By all means, you should use whatever criteria you would like to hire your own staff. But in general, I would encourage folks in computer tech industries to be hesitant to assume such a binary approach to evaluating prospects. "Did you code for fun in high school?" might be a useful question now, because software development as a field is so young that high school students can try out significant work easily. But in…

> But in most high-end professional fields, that's not true. Yeah, for some reason, when you're interviewing as a forensic pathologist, mentioning that you're cutting up partially decomposed bodies in your spare time does NOT count as a positive. I still think there is value in looking for passion in people, but maybe passion for craftsmanship in a field other than software should count equally well.

Except software is one of the only high-paying careers where you can get by purely on merit with no formal education. I'll take our, sometimes ridiculous, interview processes over requiring X, Y, and Z degree, certificate, etc...

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#229

Post by dynamicdox » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

benkovy wrote: post #222

As an unproven, but extremely passionate and motivated person (who is literally 2 hours away from going into his first Software Developer interview), I found this calming. If I don't get this position I really hope I find a company with the same ideals portrayed in this article.

Good luck!

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#230

Post by mixmastamyk » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #11

maxxxxx wrote: post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

After 10 years, most veterans have learned not to care. Or at least, not care too much.

Funny story (now), caring too much once got me "separated" from a high paying job, when an impulsive lead walked in and took over our project shortly before what would have been a successful delivery.