Live data from Hacker News

After century of removing appendixes, doctors find antibiotics can be enough

arstechnica.com

131–140 of 212 posts

Re: After century of removing appendixes, doctors find antibiotics can be enough

#131
I had an appendectomy a few years ago (in my late 20s) and I really wish the doctors had given me the option of just antibiotics. I was in severe pain and had spent the entire day vomiting, but from the CT scan my appendix wasn't at risk of rupturing at that point. They basically told me they were going to take it out as it was faster for them to manage it that way.

It's anecdotal, but ever since I had my appendix out I've struggled with digestion issues. I've tried so many things: elimination diets to discover food allergies, probiotics, a switch to vegetarianism, tons of fiber supplements, no fiber supplements, intermittent fasting, acupuncture, traditional Chinese medicine. I tried out uBiome to see if I could discover anything with that. Nothing really has worked.

On top of that, the surgery cost $25k.

Certainly there are instances where the surgery is absolutely needed, as a rupture will kill you. I'd really like to see more research on the theory that the appendix holds a backup copy of good bacteria, because at this point I'm willing to believe the appendix isn't just vestigial and actually plays a role in intestinal health that we just don't understand.

Re: After century of removing appendixes, doctors find antibiotics can be enough

#132
Do we need more reasons to soak ourselves in antibiotics? Appendectomies on otherwise healthy people are extraordinarily safe procedures. And while some research has indeed shown the appendix as a useful organ, having it out doesn't have lasting side effects. Given the coming tide of antibiotic resistance, perhaps this is an area where physical intervention via surgery can reduce the need for antibiotics.

(I know antibiotics are normally prescribed after an appendectomy anyway, but I presume that would be less than the dose needed to kill the primary infection outright.)

Re: After century of removing appendixes, doctors find antibiotics can be enough

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really look forward when the premise of Theranos becomes technically viable. Cheap continuous medical tests. So much in medical diagnosis is just a very coarse decision tree and it is uneconomical to investigate every sickness. Imagine doctors having more time per patient. Imagine many diseases detected before there are symptoms. I got carried away here, but medicine looks so much more promising then CS sometimes.

There is huge room for medicine to be improved, but actually the reason for that is there is a lot of resistance to changing things in major ways despite all the things that could be done. A lot of software companies know that their key to staying on top is to improve things fast enough that a group of founders in a co-working space won't put them out of business. Hospitals don't have this pressure at all; they just…

> I've been pressured into unnecessary procedures and even given (multiple!) sales pitches for surgeries that I haven't needed or wanted, because the hospital makes huge amounts of money from it, and consumers aren't savvy enough to know when their doctor is just trying to pad his profitability figures.

That's called Fee-For-Service (FFS) and is there is active effort to replace it with quality-based schemes. Providers still get paid for individual services but the rate depends on quality metrics of their overall population. (Source: worked in software for Population Health)

The inefficiencies you describe are less from the clinical side and more from the administrative side. Many of these admin-level people are doing what they can in an incredibly complex maze of processes, most of which started for a good reason. But they are process bees, and unable to make any changes: there's a huge barrier to change as of course nobody wants to be responsible for worse outcomes / deaths due to failure to respect process—yet they are immune from repercussions if poor outcomes are cause by said process.

More to the point, clinicians live in a constant grey zone: everything is a risk tradeoff and they do what they can to get the best outcome. The adminstrative folk see things in black and white. Here's a real example: outpatient office has slightly expired meds that are life-saving if a procedure goes bad, but new meds are not available because factory got damaged by hurricane. Common-sense is that a med does go from perfect to useless overnight and a few weeks is no big deal, especially when there is no alternative. Administrative view is the meds can't be used and must immediately be discarded because having them around the office will expose them to liability during audits... yet of course doesn't understand why that means all procedures of that type would get cancelled.

Re: After century of removing appendixes, doctors find antibiotics can be enough

#134

I'm so confused. From Wikipedia: > Appendicitis is caused by a blockage of the hollow portion of the appendix. This is most commonly due to a calcified "stone" made of feces. Inflamed lymphoid tissue from a viral infection, parasites, gallstone, or tumors may also cause the blockage... The combination of inflammation, reduced blood flow to the appendix and distention of the appendix causes tissue injury and tissue de…

I think the antibiotics probably tone down the inflammation (not sure why) which resolves the appendicitis.

It's also possible our previous understanding of appendicitis (as documented on Wikipedia) needs to be updated in light of this study.

Re: After century of removing appendixes, doctors find antibiotics can be enough

#135
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I have no medical training, so that helps. So the brain can still function for a while during cardiac arrest?

Yes. In fact you can be "dead" for rather a while and still get better under very specific circumstances, typically involving hypothermia.

I think the saying is, “Nobody is dead until warm and dead.”

Example: https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/03/union_co...

Another example: http://time.com/3897897/how-an-italian-boy-survived-42-minut...

Re: After century of removing appendixes, doctors find antibiotics can be enough

#136
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I have no medical training, so that helps. So the brain can still function for a while during cardiac arrest?

Yes. In fact you can be "dead" for rather a while and still get better under very specific circumstances, typically involving hypothermia.

[deleted]

Re: After century of removing appendixes, doctors find antibiotics can be enough

#137
There is currently a very similar study being conducted in the US. I am a subject in this study after I got appendicitis last summer. I chose to be treated with antibiotics and have been symptom free for the last ~14 months. I could also have opted to participate in the randomized controlled trial (where a treatment would have been randomly assigned to me) but surgery isn't really something I'm comfortable leaving up to chance.

Re: After century of removing appendixes, doctors find antibiotics can be enough

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctor: in your case, kills you in about 24-48 hours. I had mine out as well. I was 19. My dad drove me to the hospital. Doc slipped his finger up my bum, said, “you have appendicitis. You need surgery. Now.” I was being operated on quickly after that. It had ruptured. So it goes.

>Doc slipped his finger up my bum Is this a standard way to diagnose appendicitis?

The appendix is a tricky organ, it's position varies a far bit so not all patients with appendicitis get the classical symptoms (pain that begins as dull around the belly button, then moves to the right lower quadrant add becomes sharp and worse on rebound).

Digital (as in finger) rectal examination is meant to help detect some of the atypical cases. It was part of my teaching, although I haven't read up much on it.

I'm a student doctor.

Re: After century of removing appendixes, doctors find antibiotics can be enough

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Doc slipped his finger up my bum Is this a standard way to diagnose appendicitis?

I was taught first year of medical school (2017-2018) that it isn't. Some physicians probably still use it though.

"If you don't put your finger in it, you'll put your foot in it" is still a common aphorism. Enjoy your time on surgical assessment when you get to your clinical years!

Re: After century of removing appendixes, doctors find antibiotics can be enough

#140
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appendicitis will kill you! And the surgery in most cases will save you. :) At least in my case. I technically died from a ruptured appendix and spent 9 days in ICU. The doctors delayed surgery to see if the antibiotics would work. This was ~10 or so years ago.

Can you give more details of "technically died"? Any after-life experience?

The doctor told me that there was no heartbeat and no breathing for approximately 3 minutes. Since I'm still here... :) I called it technically dead.

As for afterlife... I don't remember anything from surgery until I woke up 9 days later in the ICU.

Post reply on HN