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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#251

Post by scrollaway »

mhjas wrote: post #236
Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

When you have a combative environment most unopinionated people leave. I don't think there is any secret that there are a lot of us out there that aren't very excited about Linux anymore. Just that most of us decided to spend time on something else instead.

And that's... Linus' fault?

Are you talking about kernel development or Linux as a consumer OS?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#252

Post by simias »

Vinnl wrote: post #222
simias wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be garbage people in "your camp", whatever that camp might be. Hell, for some people in "your camp" you'll be the nasty one. The big problem with the internet and modern social networks is that they suck at filtering the noise and getting the interesting bits. In the end if we're not careful we only hear those who shout the loudest and most provocative things. A well researched essay on gender studi…

I wish there was a way to get more of those ideas to me, and people in general, and less of the "I drink white male tears".

You have to do your own curation or have some other people do it for you. Find people who seem to say interesting things (and not merely things you agree with) and see what they have to say. Force yourself into reading those boring long essays instead of the snippets posted on social networks. Flee 24h news coverage and prefer more in-depth analysis after the fact.

The ideas don't get to you, you get to them. The rest is just entertainment. That's the whole problem really, the path of least resistance leads you to stupid one liners. A random Trump tweet reaches more people than the entirety of the works of any philosopher or economist.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#253

Post by dsajames »

Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

What privileges do you have when interacting with people?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#254

Post by pjc50 »

08-15 wrote: post #127
rpoconn1 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

True. But was Hitler a People-Person? What about Goebbels?

Supposedly he was good at dinner parties. There are plenty of accounts of various British aristocrats describing him as "charming" before the war. But while trying to find the canonical Hitler dinner party story I came across an even more extraordinary one, involving the massacre of Jews as after-dinner entertainment: https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium.MAGAZINE-...

Being a "people person" and a mass murderer are not at all incompatible. It all depends what that person thinks of as "people".

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#255

Post by BeetleB »

matz1 wrote: post #175
matthewmacleod wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

sure but I can't realistically expect everyone to be nice, Isn't better for me to always try to prepare myself for the fact that anyone can be rude and unhelpful ?

Yes, but it is also unreasonable to expect everyone you professionally deal with to be that way. To be frank, it's unreasonable to even expect this at the team level. It's also completely orthogonal to whether it's OK for the team leader to be an asshole.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#256

Post by beaconstudios »

AllegedAlec wrote: post #246
beaconstudios wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean neo-nazis, neoreactionaries, neo-fascists, all those types. Basically the subset of /pol/ and stormfront users who genuinely believe what they espouse. At least that's my interpretation of the term.

Fair enough, that is the interpretation that seems to be pushed a lot these days. I just annoys the hell out of me, since alt-right at some point meant exactly that: someone who was right-wing, but in a way which does not align with any of the standard right wing parties.

I'm aware of the origin, but the meaning of a word is not derived from it's coining but common knowledge in some form similar to (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_knowledge_(logic)). It's the same process that caused "hacker" to change its meaning from basically tinkerer to computer security expert (either white hat or black hat).

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#257

Post by 08-15 »

GW150914 wrote: post #223
08-15 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice it works like this: "Your code invokes undefined behavior and may fail in the following ways. These corner cases are handled incorrectly. There are a few other cases I'm not sure about, because I have trouble following the logic." "The code is fine. I have tested it!" "It happens to work on you current machine. That's the nature of undefined behavior. It might fail in the future without warning." "I teste…

It would cost you nothing to replace your last line with, “I’m sorry, but that’s not what we’re seeing and we won’t merge it until you fix it. I understand your passion, but I won’t sacrifice the quality of this project for that. Fix the code so that it no longer invokes undefined behavior and we’ll review it, otherwise we have nothing more to talk about.” The end. No need to call it crap, no need to burn a bridge.

It costs time and energy, because there is no end to this kind of debate. Some people are persistent and will blame you for explaining badly when they don't understand. These discussions never end; usually not even after things got labelled as crap.

Personally, I just stop responding after the technical arguments have been exchanged. There is no point in repeating what was ignored already, no point in ELI5, no point to using swear words, silence is what works best.

By the way, if you told me "I understand your passion, but...", I'd be angry beyond belief. That's the way you talk to children, and even my mother is no longer allowed to talk to me like that. I consider that a stronger insult than my code being called crap. Which probably shows that shutting up in time is the best response.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#258

Post by mcherm »

ethbro wrote: post #213
mikeash wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people would stop being so concerned about what other people think. If treating people well is the right thing to do, then do it. If people are nasty when they try to make you treat people well, ignore them. When people say that they wanted to do the right thing but got pushed away because the advocates were jerks, that just sounds like an excuse. That’s not to say that it’s ok to be a jerk just because you’re…

Civility is the bedrock on which justice is built. That's why Gandhi, King, and Mandela effected change. And so many passionate others did not.

You listed a few examples of individuals who effected great change and were civil. (Mostly civil. Gandhi, King, and Mandela were each accused by their detractors of being insufficiently civil.)

I could easily list examples of individuals who effected great change and were NOT civil. Neither list would prove anything. An actual analysis of leaders who were then classified according to their civility and rated on their effectiveness would tell us a lot, but I haven't seen such an analysis.

I'm not saying civility is a bad idea -- it is the approach I usually use. But you haven't convinced me of anything by listing 3 famous names.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#259

Post by pjc50 »

ethbro wrote: post #213
mikeash wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people would stop being so concerned about what other people think. If treating people well is the right thing to do, then do it. If people are nasty when they try to make you treat people well, ignore them. When people say that they wanted to do the right thing but got pushed away because the advocates were jerks, that just sounds like an excuse. That’s not to say that it’s ok to be a jerk just because you’re…

Civility is the bedrock on which justice is built. That's why Gandhi, King, and Mandela effected change. And so many passionate others did not.

All of whom were described as extremely uncivil by their enemies at the time. During the 80s it was routine for British conservatives to denounce Mandela as a terrorist (which was actually the crime he'd been convicted of, and he was actually involved in plotting acts of sabotage against the SA government).

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#260

Post by matz1 »

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #245
matz1 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it better to train myself to not be affected with insult ? If some one say to me "No, you stupid pile of sheet, I won't merge this pull request because of X, Y, and Z." I'll just ignore the insult part or at very least to not let myself negatively affected and move on.

It's unlikely that someone can be impervious to all and every type of insult and at any point in your life, as long as you are human. In some cultures e.g. Japanese, being publicly accused and insulted is worse than insulting - it's a mark of shame that doesn't go away. Unfortunately people simply can't rewire their brain, especially as adults, and that's why good manners exist.

> It's unlikely that someone can be impervious to all and every type of insult and at any point in your life, as long as you are human

Sure, but I can always make the effort and try

>Unfortunately people simply can't rewire their brain, especially as adults

I think It works both way. Some asshole can't simply be not asshole.

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