Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite' • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#181

Post by tomlock » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:15 PM UTC

yashap wrote: post #123

tomlock wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So my assumption then since you've said "many on the left" fly to outrage too easily, is that you don't know many people in real life who are on the left. Is that accurate?

Very wrong, I’m quite left wing myself, as are most of my friends/family. I’m really not sure why you’re jumping to these conclusions based on my post. In terms of “real life” vs. internet, people are just a lot more reasonable in person, with minimal outrage. But online, especially on discussion boards, people are constantly flying into outrage.

Well, you said many on the left leap to outrage, so I assumed you meant that universally, rather than as a subset of left wing people, which you assume are accurately represented by what gets amplified online.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#182

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:15 PM UTC

beaconstudios wrote: post #158

evanspa wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you feel it is "the natural tendency" to make minorities feel less welcome? My natural tendency -- and anecdotally, pretty much everyone I know -- is to treat people well regardless of their race; to treat people the way you'd want to be treated.

the question of the status quo is itself politicised. One side (progressive sphere) says people who don't belong to the normed group (cis-white-hetero-male in US/EUR) are inherently treated worse, either consciously or unconsciously (bias), and conscious effort has to be made to overcome this. Another (classical liberal sphere) says that exclusionary behaviour are the exception and most people abide by the golden rul…

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#183

Post by conradfr » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:15 PM UTC

To the person who said (since deleted or moderated) that Linus changed because "they" had dirt on him : his daughter signed the "Post-Meritocracy Manifesto" and is into "intersectional feminism" so I think a more pragmatic answer is that she convinced him to change.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#184

Post by ambicapter » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:16 PM UTC

DFHippie wrote: post #164

deelowe wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we still talking about the LKML here? I don't feel "SJW" has much of anything to do with this outside of a few very isolated incidents. Personal attacks and disrespectfulness has been a staple in that community for decades at this point and definitely predates the somewhat modern hatefulness surrounding bias and privilege.

Off-topic and a minor thing, but "predate" is what predators do to prey. "Pre-date" is what one moment can do to another. At least according to my wife, for whom this matter looms large (she is an editor).

This seems like a preference. Merriam Webster agrees with your wife, Cambridge English and Oxford do not.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#185

Post by qrbLPHiKpiux » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:16 PM UTC

qrbLPHiKpiux wrote: post #122

No one should ever - EVER - change because of someone else's opinion of them. If that person doesn't like working with someone, that's their problem and they should work elsewhere. I'm sick of this SJW stuff.

And here come the SJW downvotes - you people are so predictable.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#186

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:16 PM UTC

alfredmuffin wrote: post #121

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That would simply not fly at my company. Sure, but that's a terrible example because a lot of what goes on in companies is more about appearance than substance.

Can't speak for others, but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness. Naturally, the individuals who argued against these changes were older white male engineers too ingrained in their ways.

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#187

Post by mikeash » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:16 PM UTC

yourbandsucks wrote: post #174

mikeash wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By talking about how problematic these people are, you miss and reinforce my point. I’m not saying anything about how they behave or whether it’s acceptable or helpful. I’m saying that how you behave should not be determined by them. If you’ve decided not to encourage people to do the right thing (or, worse, stop doing the right thing yourself) because some other people are jerks, you’re just making excuses for behav…

As far as my side of the street: I've knocked on a LOT of doors for progressive candidates, and will continue to do so. Don't you worry about me. But do you see the box you're building? I'm either 100% on board with an ever-more-extreme program, or I'm somehow revealing the evil nature of my heart by being turned off by them? I'm very serious about the persuasion component, and the fact that it's pushing EVEN ME away…

That’s not the box I’m building at all. Here’s what I’m trying to say: figure out what you believe in, figure out what to do, and then do it. Don’t account for how other people advocate for it, just do your own thing. If you think they’re useless or even counterproductive then fine, but if that changes how you do things then you’re doing it wrong.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#188

Post by matz1 » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:17 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #108

simias wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell Linus's feedback is almost always constructive in that it generally points out precisely why he thinks something should or shouldn't that way. The problem is that he sometimes splices personal attacks and uses an overly aggressive tone which doesn't really help anything. I can somewhat justify using a very corrosive tone if you're not in a place of power and you want to be sure that you're not ig…

You are highlighting the false dichotomy that a lot of folks in this thread--and, if I'm being frank, not for good, decent, or ethical reasons--are piling in on. You can do something that makes people upset without being an asshole. It's really that simple. "No, I won't merge this pull request because of X, Y, and Z." Somebody's probably not going to be happy. But you have not needed to stoop to insulting them. You h…

Is it better to train myself to not be affected with insult ? If some one say to me "No, you stupid pile of sheet, I won't merge this pull request because of X, Y, and Z." I'll just ignore the insult part or at very least to not let myself negatively affected and move on.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#189

Post by eeZah7Ux » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:17 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #148

yourbandsucks wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, on most political or religious topics, people leave that stuff at home and don't bring it to work. The SJW people are bringing it to work and right into everybody's face. I'm not saying "guess what, then, I'm the opposite, let's go be racist". I'm saying "could you please get that out of my face".

I currently work and no, people don’t leave their politics at work. You’ll hear about people’s partners and they’ll expect to hear the same form you, which is now a political matter because some states let you get fired for being gay (sexuality is now political). People will talk about current events, the latest and greatest hit tweets from the POTUS, so on and so forth. Hell I can hardly have lunch with co workers w…

The idea of "leaving politics outside of work" is, in itself, extremely political.

How many social and political movements, and even revolutions came out from workplaces and worker communities?

The 8-hours revolution, Fascism in Italy, Bolshevism in Russia, and the list goes on.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#190

Post by Sharlin » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 2:17 PM UTC

adamrezich wrote: post #116

notacoward wrote: post #104

IMO the most interesting part - especially relative to the discussions I've seen right here - is near the end. "But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing." Yes indeed, if you loo…

>There are people who will oppose any kind of general rule restraining behavior, because that would prevent them from exercising their own more personal and arguably more subtle kind of coercion against those they don't like for whatever reason. Do you really, truly believe this is the reason why so many people are against Codes of Conduct in open-source projects? Can you point me to this mass of disillusioned bigots…

> Can you point me to this mass of disillusioned bigots, expressing frustration at their inability to continue to act bigoted while within proximity to open-source?

Sure. Just take a look at the trainwreck that is the CoC commit ”discussion” at GitHub. Of course, almost nobody participating in it has anything to do with Linux kernel development. But they do appear to be rather unpleasant people.