Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite' • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#61

Post by maxxxxx » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:27 PM UTC

rectang wrote: post #30

asdkhadsj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more of a question than a critique on your comment, but: Couldn't he still not be a people person _(perhaps a poor communicator)_, and still manage a successful community? I say that because historically it's been a bit of a meme around how forceful and abrasive Linus is. Yet, he's often right, or at the very least very informed. He's a very smart man who has done very smart things. I'm not sure if the Linux…

Torvalds' written communications are incredibly well-composed, full of information and get his point across well. On the basis of his emails alone, he's a "gifted communicator" in my view. Not everyone who is as logically brilliant as him can write like that. Despite that, I'm sure that when he says he's "not a people person" there's something to it. Maybe a certain difficulty reading people or anticipating their res…

"not a people person"

Some people are are task oriented and some people are relationship oriented. I think he cares more about the project than making people happy.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#62

Post by kristianc » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:27 PM UTC

I think this comes across as incredibly nuanced and thoughtful.

Often we only see the outer surface of what people are actually like, and make judgments on their character based on that.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#63

Post by rhencke » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:27 PM UTC

rectang wrote: post #30

asdkhadsj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more of a question than a critique on your comment, but: Couldn't he still not be a people person _(perhaps a poor communicator)_, and still manage a successful community? I say that because historically it's been a bit of a meme around how forceful and abrasive Linus is. Yet, he's often right, or at the very least very informed. He's a very smart man who has done very smart things. I'm not sure if the Linux…

Torvalds' written communications are incredibly well-composed, full of information and get his point across well. On the basis of his emails alone, he's a "gifted communicator" in my view. Not everyone who is as logically brilliant as him can write like that. Despite that, I'm sure that when he says he's "not a people person" there's something to it. Maybe a certain difficulty reading people or anticipating their res…

I highly recommend watching the TED Talk that Torvalds presented. You get a much clearer idea what he means by "not a people person".

https://www.ted.com/talks/linus_torvalds_the_mind_behind_lin...

This talk is also back in 2016, and even then, he talks about not being proud of the way that he reacts to people sometimes. So, while his recent announcement may come as a surprise to some, it's something he appears to have been giving a good deal of thought for a while now.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#64

Post by Vinnl » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:27 PM UTC

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause.

In effect, they're really counterproductive, and the only reason Linus is now openly on "their side" (for lack of a term that better describes what I mean), is because the "other side" also was really nasty, pushing him away from them.

It took a while for me to realise what privileges I have had that some others have not. The first step to realising that was being open to that even being possible, and shouting contests do not encourage that.

I'd love it if Linus' approach here would lead to less-heated discussions and actual insights on the subject, but the hate and vitriol I've seen spewed in his direction after his announcement doesn't make me hopeful...

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#65

Post by Nasrudith » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:28 PM UTC

caf wrote: post #44

mosselman wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are either a truthful asshole or a kind liar? There are no people who are kind and honest?

I don't know, but the idioms of the "white lie" and "polite fiction" certainly imply some connection between impoliteness and truth-telling, don't they?

Expectations of politeness generally involve letting people have their happy delusions if they aren't harming anyone. For instance for someone whose son went MIA in Vietnam and holds hopes that he will return one day telling them "He probably either died and his corpse was forgotten or in the off chance he is alive went AWOL with some peasant girl after getting fed up with the war and lives in fear that he will be found out.". Even if statistically it is 100% true that would be staggeringly rude to say to them.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#66

Post by tao_oat » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:28 PM UTC

navane wrote: post #22

I would like to see a scatter diagram with 'technical contribution' on one axis and 'CoC contribution' on the other axis, for all people involved.

If an improved CoC means that more people feel able and encouraged to contribute, does that then count in favor of the 'technical contribution' axis for the people who wrote it? If not, your plot isn't all that useful.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#67

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

alfredmuffin wrote: post #49

I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST "). That would simply not fly at my company. It is absolutely possible to be kind when giving honest and constructive feedback and criticism. Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

> That would simply not fly at my company.

Sure, but that's a terrible example because a lot of what goes on in companies is more about appearance than substance.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#68

Post by maxxxxx » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #21

stemc43 wrote: post #10

If not for this guy - we wouldn't have Linux. I'd much rather work with honest person that can tell me how he really feels then nice spoken liars.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Sure. But in reality as a leader you sometimes have to be willing to piss off some people. You can't always be nice. Sometimes you have to draw a clear boundary.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#69

Post by baud147258 » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

pleasecalllater wrote: post #3

Some people are true leaders; some people are true bullies. This is a free world, you can choose your role. I'm choosing to stay away from bullies.

> I'm choosing to stay away from bullies.

Who are the bullies in your opinion? Don't be shy, name and shame!

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#70

Post by nailer » Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 1:30 PM UTC

nalllar wrote: post #51

steve_taylor wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes That's the CoC's entire purpose. Its author (the same person behind the post-meritocracy manifesto) has said that yes, the CoC is a political document.

Being political isn't a problem. Free Software is political. mjg59 put this far better than I could: > A reminder that free software is fundamentally about breaking down barriers preventing people from participating in a social endeavour that grants them more control over their computers, and anyone who argues against that process is not helping the cause of free software > Some of those barriers are technical (DRM,…

mjg's quote was concerning ethics and abuse, and does not mention politics.

The concern is that the CoC itself may be used to abuse individuals.

Asides from the Tso example, there was someone else harassed because, outside of a project, they expressed a sexual preference for male dominant/female submissive roles.