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How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

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Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#151

Post by schiffern »

zeroname wrote: post #117
misabon wrote: post #43

AMD has to license their stuff to Hygon too. I think it’s great. IP laws are stifling innovation and the fact that there is an escape hatch in China is a good thing.

IP laws also support innovation. Nobody would invest millions into figuring out the right arrangement of atoms that cures some disease, if there wasn't a way to profit from that. At the other end of the spectrum is protecting the "invention" of buying something with a single mouse click. There should be a healthy middle somewhere.

>Nobody would invest millions into figuring out the right arrangement of atoms that cures some disease

Sure they would. It's called public research, most of which is promptly handed to private companies to profit from. Pharmaceutical research is hugely taxpayer subsidized.[1]

Let me be clear: I think the funding is a good thing, but the privatization (read: theft) of subsequent profits is bad.

[1] https://other98.com/taxpayers-fund-pharma-research-developme...

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#152

Post by ericd »

chillacy wrote: post #62
rayiner wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that we did it to the UK doesn't mean it's good for us to let China do it too. I mean, we exterminated the native Americans and stole their land--if someone tried to do that to us, should we sit back and do nothing? "Oh well, cosmic balance and whatnot!"

It’s definitely in American interests to defend IP, but I wouldn’t try to make moralistic arguments, they just come off as hypocritical given the history.

The thing is, you can always dig up some hypocrisy if you go back far enough. Our ancestors doing something bad doesn't forever nullify arguments against other people doing that thing to us. You don't deserve karmic retribution because of what someone else did, even if you benefit from it.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#153

Post by ericd »

kenmicklas wrote: post #116
natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

It sounds like you are advocating something like IP mercantilism which is even worse than the original mercantilism considering that IP is not a zero-sum commodity. It should be distributed as widely as possible.

And then what incentivizes a company to invest heavily in R&D if they will derive no disproportionate advantage from their discoveries? Wouldn't there be a bit of a tragedy of the commons situation where everyone tries to wait for everyone else to invest so that they can reap the reward while others bear the cost? If that comes to pass, everyone will be poorer as R&D spending slows down.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#154

Post by [deleted] »

che_shirecat wrote: post #128
landryraccoon wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now that US companies have entered China, can you name some examples of first entrants who have “seized the market”? I think your entire premise is dubious. The first mover advantage cannot be great because the Chinese government will never allow a foreign company to have a dominant position in an important domestic Chinese market. Without significant change since in government those first entrant companies are si…

Apple? They clocked almost $10B in revenue from China in Q3 2018, close to 20% of total revenue.

[deleted]

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#155

Post by weberc2 »

chillacy wrote: post #147
dx87 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you consider slavery acceptable in developing nations? After all, the US benefited from it while it was growing, why should we deny the economic benefits of slavery to other countries.

If the offer on the table for developing countries is either take the poison pill or never develop (where the poison pill is lax IP, lax environmental laws, child labor, exploiting other countries for resources), I think you'd be hard pressed to find a country which wouldn't make that sacrifice.

That's not the offer on the table. China is already a developed country (and they already got there by more than their share of exploitation).

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#156

Post by jessaustin »

bduerst wrote: post #55
_khau wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Invoking whataboutism is not a defense against hypocrisy.

Pointing out someone else's hypocrisy is not a defense of bad behavior.

It is a proof that the behavior in question isn't "bad" in the first place.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#157

Post by jessaustin »

anon92612 wrote: post #96
ccnafr wrote: post #88

tl;dr: It steals it

piracy != theft

Actually piracy is a particular kind of theft. Piracy is robbery on the high seas. Robbery is a type of theft that takes place in conjunction with violence, force, and intimidation.

Nothing that happens on land is piracy, so I'm not sure why it comes up so often in these discussions.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#158

Post by zeroname »

schiffern wrote: post #151
zeroname wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IP laws also support innovation. Nobody would invest millions into figuring out the right arrangement of atoms that cures some disease, if there wasn't a way to profit from that. At the other end of the spectrum is protecting the "invention" of buying something with a single mouse click. There should be a healthy middle somewhere.

>Nobody would invest millions into figuring out the right arrangement of atoms that cures some disease Sure they would. It's called public research, most of which is promptly handed to private companies to profit from. Pharmaceutical research is hugely taxpayer subsidized.[1] Let me be clear: I think the funding is a good thing, but the privatization (read: theft) of subsequent profits is bad. [1] https://other98.com…

Obviously I'm talking about private investment, not public funding.

Of course these companies use information obtained through public research, they're supposed to, because there's a long process from research to an approved product, which is what the research institutions do not do. Public and private research goes hand in hand, just like in other industries. The study quotes a hundred billion in public funding over six years, compare that to private R&D budgets of well over 50 billion per year:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_industry#The_co...

It's not "a scam", as that article wants you to believe. You should stop reading that website, it's making you more uneducated.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#159

Post by nil_pointer »

mc32 wrote: post #57

Well, at least the cat’s out of the bag and the media aren’t pretending it doesn’t exist or that people are exaggerating, etc. Of course now people are going to normalize it and say it’s no big deal after years of saying it was an exaggeration. But that’s what you get when you get blinded by the lure of 1-billion potential consumers... along with an unfavorable trade agreement wich allowed for assymetrical tariffs, e…

People are saying it's no big deal and normalizing it in this very HN comment thread

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#160

Post by nil_pointer »

misabon wrote: post #43

AMD has to license their stuff to Hygon too. I think it’s great. IP laws are stifling innovation and the fact that there is an escape hatch in China is a good thing.

Yikes. An "escape hatch" is a funny way to describe economic espionage.
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