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Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

nytimes.com

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Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#131

Post by lewisinc »

gunnihinn wrote: post #28
bilbo0s wrote: post #7

I actually applaud Poulson for leaving Google in protest of Google's Chinese business practices. Having mentioned that, I think I have to part ways with him when he implies that the correct way to "fix" this is to have the government come in and make these sorts of business decisions for the company. I don't believe in the government obliging businesses to do things. Especially when it looks like this whole thing is…

> Once government gets involved and starts playing favorites, everything gets messed up. OK. Is it more or less messed up than that a private corporation can and is willing to perform surveillance on foreign citizens on behalf of those citizens' government that would be unacceptable anywhere else?

I think one thing that's important here is that China has a lot of pull on these companies. It's possible for China to look at Google, Apple, or whatever and just say "oh, too bad you don't want to do X. I guess we're going to have to do Y to your business model." It really should be the role of the government in this sort of instance to step in remove the incentive for China to enact punitive measure against that company by just making it impossible legally for that company to even be immoral in that specific way. How difficult is it to codify a law that says "it is illegal for a company based in the US to perform surveillance operations on behalf of a foreign government agency against its own people"?

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#132

Post by coffeeonrollt »

toss1 wrote: post #113
tensor wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company complying with the laws of the country it does business in seems fairly uncontroversial to me, even if you may not agree with those laws. Do you want your companies to be extensions of US foreign policy?

Actually, YES, to the extent that the foreign policy is supporting & maintaining institutions & policies necessary for continued open democratic societies. By virtue of the US' historically strong support for open democracies (albeit often flawed or failed), and historical accident, it essentially now falls to the US to attempt to maintain it around the world. To the extent that we have failed to maintain and support…

With the amount of Chinese products being used in US and US support of countries who have violated human rights, your statement sounds hypocritical. US has interests and behaves to protect it, there is no morality in those decisions.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#133

Post by modzu »

bilbo0s wrote: post #7

I actually applaud Poulson for leaving Google in protest of Google's Chinese business practices. Having mentioned that, I think I have to part ways with him when he implies that the correct way to "fix" this is to have the government come in and make these sorts of business decisions for the company. I don't believe in the government obliging businesses to do things. Especially when it looks like this whole thing is…

its not really google specific other than in the sense google is breaking the law; if some other company breaks the law then yes, the law should come after them too...

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#134

Post by stcredzero »

blub wrote: post #129
bilbo0s wrote: post #7

I actually applaud Poulson for leaving Google in protest of Google's Chinese business practices. Having mentioned that, I think I have to part ways with him when he implies that the correct way to "fix" this is to have the government come in and make these sorts of business decisions for the company. I don't believe in the government obliging businesses to do things. Especially when it looks like this whole thing is…

Saying "I don't believe in the government obliging businesses to do things." seems to me akin to not believing in gravity. The government - including the US government - is obliging all companies operating on its territory to do certain things. That's one of the roles of government.

Saying "I don't believe in the government obliging businesses to do things." seems to me akin to not believing in gravity.

Believing in gravity doesn't mean that you then need to gain as much weight as possible. In fact, taking into account science like that, you might want to lose a certain amount of weight for your health.

"The government obliging businesses to do things," is necessary, like carbohydrates are necessary. That said, you don't want too much of something.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#135

Post by blub »

jamiequint wrote: post #41
IBM wrote: post #6

Brian Acton or anyone else feeling guilty about their ad-tech wealth: use your winnings to lobby for a federal privacy bill that is as strong and comprehensive as GDPR (and other EU privacy regulations). The industry is moving to enact something that maintains the status quo [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/26/technology/tech-industry-...

Ironically, in a way similar to most legislation, GDPR will mostly benefit the largest tech companies at the expense of small startups that may eventually compete with them. Google, FB, et al have endless amounts of resources to comply with and litigate legislation like GDPR, whereas it's a substantial cost to smaller companies to do the same.

The point of the law is to protect EU citizens, not support business.

Lamenting about the fate of small businesses is getting tiresome, especially when said businesses are one dime a dozen startups whose ultimate goal on their wonderful journey is to get sold and make the founders rich.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#136

Post by snappyTertle »

gunnihinn wrote: post #28
bilbo0s wrote: post #7

I actually applaud Poulson for leaving Google in protest of Google's Chinese business practices. Having mentioned that, I think I have to part ways with him when he implies that the correct way to "fix" this is to have the government come in and make these sorts of business decisions for the company. I don't believe in the government obliging businesses to do things. Especially when it looks like this whole thing is…

> Once government gets involved and starts playing favorites, everything gets messed up. OK. Is it more or less messed up than that a private corporation can and is willing to perform surveillance on foreign citizens on behalf of those citizens' government that would be unacceptable anywhere else?

I'm in the camp of the fewer regulations the better, but one thing I think needs more regulation is how the private sector and public sector interact. There is just way too much conflict of interest when they mix.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#137

Post by robotrout »

oconnor663 wrote: post #103
andrepd wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah right, "following the laws", because discussions of morality can be reduced to whether it "follows the law" or not? No, that's absurd. Google is objectively abetting an authoritarian regime and providing it with extremely useful tools to maintain and strengthen totalitarian control over 1.4 billion people, and this is wrong.

Look, my biases are much more in favor of the US govt than of China's, for all the obvious reasons. But we have to be able to see that this is opening a huge can of worms. For example, I think it's pretty troubling that the French government banned a bunch of Muslim religious garments. Does that mean I should advocate that various US companies need to stop doing business with France? Clearly there's _some_ level of a…

I applaud France's action here. Should have done it earlier. These women are often forced to wear such garments or face severe retribution from their fundamentalist communities. Making it illegal allows them a similar loophole that a US law not permitting US companies to implement surveillance programs would allow US companies. It takes the option off the table without inciting retribution against the women or the companies.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#138

Post by mulmen »

andrepd wrote: post #71
tensor wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company complying with the laws of the country it does business in seems fairly uncontroversial to me, even if you may not agree with those laws. Do you want your companies to be extensions of US foreign policy?

Ah right, "following the laws", because discussions of morality can be reduced to whether it "follows the law" or not? No, that's absurd. Google is objectively abetting an authoritarian regime and providing it with extremely useful tools to maintain and strengthen totalitarian control over 1.4 billion people, and this is wrong.

I'm not going to defend what Google is doing. Having said that you should be very careful when asking corporations to enforce any kind of morality.

The electorate defines our morality through government. Companies should play no part in this definition outside of the rights of their employees as private citizens.

You should also be very careful when imposing your own personal views on people living in an entirely different country. Our (western) moral superiority is something we have justified to ourselves many times and it has rarely worked out in our favor.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#139

Post by TACIXAT »

mzs wrote: post #15

last week >Google hushing employees on Chinese search engine https://www.axios.com/google-china-dragonfly-employees-searc...

>The search engine requires users to log in to use its search features and tracks user's locations. It shares user's history with a Chinese partner. All searches would be connected to a personal phone number and user movements, along with the IP address of the device they used, would be recorded.

How is this at all different from the US version?

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#140

Post by briandear »

test001only wrote: post #118
andrepd wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah right, "following the laws", because discussions of morality can be reduced to whether it "follows the law" or not? No, that's absurd. Google is objectively abetting an authoritarian regime and providing it with extremely useful tools to maintain and strengthen totalitarian control over 1.4 billion people, and this is wrong.

Because government making decision based on morality is slippery slope as morality is very subjective and varies with people, race and religion. Also is not Republican the party which advocates small government?

Conservatism is about small government and while Republicans and conservatives overlap, they aren’t the same thing. It’s kind of how Socialists tend to vote Democrat, but that doesn’t mean that Democrats act consistently with socialism.

But I agree, government forcing a company to do something isn’t particularly in line with Republican ideas and it’s hypocritical in the context of limited government.

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