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Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

nytimes.com

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Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#61

Post by awakeasleep »

tensor wrote: post #42
gunnihinn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once government gets involved and starts playing favorites, everything gets messed up. OK. Is it more or less messed up than that a private corporation can and is willing to perform surveillance on foreign citizens on behalf of those citizens' government that would be unacceptable anywhere else?

A company complying with the laws of the country it does business in seems fairly uncontroversial to me, even if you may not agree with those laws. Do you want your companies to be extensions of US foreign policy?

You're looking at the question from a really nihilistic-libertarian perspective.

IBM was following the law when it sold the nazis tools for tracking 'undesirable' people. Google's search engine will be used to track the Uyghur, and the Uyghurs are being sent to reeducation camps at this very moment.

We're talking about an apples to apples comparison here. It's controversial _as hell_ to sell tools used to do genocide! In a democracy the government should be able to restrain businesses that perform abhorrent practices.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#62

Post by jiveturkey »

bilbo0s wrote: post #7

I actually applaud Poulson for leaving Google in protest of Google's Chinese business practices. Having mentioned that, I think I have to part ways with him when he implies that the correct way to "fix" this is to have the government come in and make these sorts of business decisions for the company. I don't believe in the government obliging businesses to do things. Especially when it looks like this whole thing is…

Your point is valid for most, but Google has the power to shape opinion and deserves special scrutiny. The government is not just "coming in" on this issue, Google is under a consent decree due to their prior demonstrated bad practices.

On this issue, nothing will be done (I hope) because it's irrelevant to US citizens. But it is a good thing to publicly call them to task for violating their own internal guidelines and mandated policies. It's not acceptable.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#63

Post by at-fates-hands »

gunnihinn wrote: post #28
bilbo0s wrote: post #7

I actually applaud Poulson for leaving Google in protest of Google's Chinese business practices. Having mentioned that, I think I have to part ways with him when he implies that the correct way to "fix" this is to have the government come in and make these sorts of business decisions for the company. I don't believe in the government obliging businesses to do things. Especially when it looks like this whole thing is…

> Once government gets involved and starts playing favorites, everything gets messed up. OK. Is it more or less messed up than that a private corporation can and is willing to perform surveillance on foreign citizens on behalf of those citizens' government that would be unacceptable anywhere else?

> Is it more or less messed up than that a private corporation can and is willing to perform surveillance on foreign citizens on behalf of those citizens' government that would be unacceptable anywhere else?

It actually happens a lot more places than just China. The only reason its getting headlines now is because its Google.

There are a TON of information security companies who deal with sketchy foreign governments to develop tools to spy on their own citizens.

- Israeli company NSO helping the UAE spy on pro-democracy activist Ahmed Mansoor

- BAE Systems actively shopping surveillance tools to countries like Algeria, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE during the Arab Spring.

- Procera Networks who sold deep packet inspection tools to Turkey to spy on its citizens

- Hacking Team's surveillance software was sold to the Ethiopian government (among others) to spy on journalists and other activists in their country.

You also have Mitnick who threw his hat in the ring and said he has a team of hackers uncovering zero-day exploits that he hopes to sell to the highest bidder - even if the bidder is a repressive regime.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#64

Post by ocdtrekkie »

jamiequint wrote: post #41
IBM wrote: post #6

Brian Acton or anyone else feeling guilty about their ad-tech wealth: use your winnings to lobby for a federal privacy bill that is as strong and comprehensive as GDPR (and other EU privacy regulations). The industry is moving to enact something that maintains the status quo [1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/26/technology/tech-industry-...

Ironically, in a way similar to most legislation, GDPR will mostly benefit the largest tech companies at the expense of small startups that may eventually compete with them. Google, FB, et al have endless amounts of resources to comply with and litigate legislation like GDPR, whereas it's a substantial cost to smaller companies to do the same.

Ironically, the only companies who talk about how GDPR will help big companies and hurt small ones is... big companies. (It was uttered by a Googler in Congress today!) Of course, this makes no sense, why would all these big tech companies be campaigning against a law that would allegedly help them.

It's because it's a lie.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#65

Post by JCSato »

noreddit323 wrote: post #57
scrollaway wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why the sudden concern over tech companies mining our habits? Oh enough. There's been concern since the beginning, it's just getting more press right this minute. One step at a time.

Ok, "dad". Way to cherry pick the obvious counter-argument to make. I'll take that as a tacit agreement with the rest of what was said.

Not so much "easy" as "obvious".

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#66

Post by forapurpose »

pg_bot wrote: post #27

This "broad pattern of unaccountable decision making", also called permissionless innovation, is the reason why America has a culture of innovation. For those unaware, the United States runs on what I call "Air Bud rules", named for this scene from the children's movie.[0] To summarize, as long as there isn't a rule forbidding you from doing something, you can do it. While I applaud his personal stance on refusing to…

> This "broad pattern of unaccountable decision making", also called permissionless innovation, is the reason why America has a culture of innovation.

I've seen that theory, but my understanding is that striking a proper balance is what fosters innovation; anarchy yields corruption and spoils for the powerful; it does not reward the most productive and innovative. Also, my impression is that other things may be much more important for innovation, especially opportunity for education, for capital, and for access to the market (e.g., rules that prevent vested interests from blocking newcomers from the marketplace).

> any solution that requires foregoing independent corporate decision making would be foolish

Should we abolish all laws and regulations about safety, fraud, and fairness? Personally, I don't see corporations as having such a great track record that I trust them so implicitly.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#67

Post by noreddit323 »

thrillgore wrote: post #19
noreddit323 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the sudden concern over tech companies mining our habits? Advertisers have been doing it for years, using government funded research in military propaganda that made it's way into universities after WW2 as marketing and journalism programs. This rhetoric is something like "Kill this particular witch!" without questioning whether the belief we hold on how the world works is rational. EDIT: let me re-state: Why is…

I think after the last election, the moral panic du jour was aimed at tech companies. Russian hackers on Facebook, clickbait...it's all lead to this. And the dialog is manufactured to make Google a villain. I'm not sure who the bigger villain is here: Google, or whoever wants to cut them down.

Well of course. The old school business class is being outdone by them.

The east coast media elites are now focusing on west coast rabble rousers.

I'm not saying it isn't entirely deserved. But they're not doing anything catalogs, grocery stores, and others haven't been doing for years.

West coast tech has the visiblity, the public is growing mistrustful, and are easier to vilify to people that don't realize the cell phone providers have been tracking their locations for decades (used to work for one of the top 3 in network ops, oh yeah, they could find you within a block back in the 90s). Or that Sears has profiles on their customers dating back quite a while.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#68

Post by beaner »

bogomipz wrote: post #58
tensor wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company complying with the laws of the country it does business in seems fairly uncontroversial to me, even if you may not agree with those laws. Do you want your companies to be extensions of US foreign policy?

>"Do you want your companies to be extensions of US foreign policy?" No but it would be nice if they at least upheld the same values of the country that they themselves are a product of. Or are values just things you can draw arbitrary borders around when it's convenient?

Not many disagree with that. The question is whether it should be enforced by politics or if people/companies can be allowed to make the decisions themselves.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#69

Post by analyst74 »

jostmey wrote: post #2

My take in the issue is that Google is being mismanaged. China will not allow a foreign company to compete against its home grown search engines, so why bother? By bowing to Chinese censorship, Google hurts its public image. Google's management should have expected that its employees, who joined Google on the premise of "Do not evil", would leak this to the public. In short, the people at the top of Google look like…

Chinese government is not this monolith entity with a single will.

All major firms operating in China will have to have some sort of government connections who champion for them, otherwise its competitors will use their influence in government branches to put on more scrutiny on them, creating a competitive advantage.

At its core, this is not that different from major US firms having to have allies in media and Washington to avoid being heavily scrutinized. Although how the connections are established and how the influence is carried out might be new to US companies. Google will have to learn and compete at a disadvantage in the meantime.

Re: Ex-Google Employee Urges Lawmakers to Take on Company

#70

Post by qubax »

notriddle wrote: post #60
qubax wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China will not allow a foreign company to compete against its home grown search engines, so why bother? No. China will let a foreign company compete against its home grown search engines under its own terms. There's no way we'd let a chinese company take over search in the US. Why should they allow an american search engine take over? > By bowing to Chinese censorship, Google hurts its public image. Google has bowe…

> There's no way we'd let a chinese company take over search in the US. Why not? Korea and China dominate the manufacturing part, why should search be any different?

> Why not?

Because it's important ( national security level important ).

> Korea and China dominate the manufacturing part, why should search be any different?

Korea and China dominate the manufacturing part of search? What does that even mean?

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