How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies • Hacker News Board

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#121

Post by aurailious » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 5:26 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #109

aurailious wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this "whataboutism"? You shut down a conversation by trying to deflect about how others have also done something? Like you said, two wrongs don't make a right. Just by pointing out this has happened elsewhere doesn't make the conversation about China doing it any less important or relevant. Why shut down this conversation?

There's two parts here. Yes, China's doing it, and we shouldn't ignore it, and we need to condemn it and figure out how to respond. That's on one level. On another level, though, any country that has more to gain by stealing than to lose by being stolen from is going to be tempted to steal. Given what human nature is, you'd better expect it to happen. It's like how in domestic society, on one level we expect people t…

I forget, what was this thread about again? Human nature or China stealing IP?

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#122

Post by optimiz3 » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 5:27 PM UTC

natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

Perhaps we should consider revoking patent and other IP protections for companies that knowingly or negligently allow IP to be transferred to jurisdictions that do not respect IP rights in pursuit of profit.

Otherwise it's a double whammy, your foreign competitors compete unbound while your domestic market competition is restricted.

It would also align the game theory to prevent companies from "selling out" to such jurisdictions.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#123

Post by paganel » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 5:28 PM UTC

zip1234 wrote: post #111

paganel wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It helped the US become an industrialist behemoth, and as such I’d say it also helped the rest of the world (having more industrialized nations compared to fewer was a plus for human development, in the great scheme of things). As such I’d say that the eight-year old would be right.

It also happened over a hundred years ago. We are now in the 'modern era' and international trade is a much bigger part of any economy. The World Bank statistics only go back to 1960, but since that time the % of economy that is trade has gone from 25% to 50%. Much more significant to steal technology today. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.TRD.GNFS.ZS

I’d say international trade was a bigger part of the world’s GDP back in the late Antiquity- going well into the Middle Ages, that is back when most of the know-how migrated from East to West (from water mills to the silk industry, gun powder etc). I think the world was a better place because the Europeans got to “steal” that know-how, I’m saying the world will be a better place if the Chinese (or the Indians) get to “steal” today’s latest know-how. Of course, if you’re a US citizen whose pension money was invested in US companies and their IP assets then I agree, the situation is less than ideal, but in the great scheme of things and for humanity as a whole I think that the pluses are bigger than the local minuses, so to speak.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#124

Post by Aunche » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 5:32 PM UTC

StreamBright wrote: post #76

jarym wrote: post #72

US companies go into China eyes wide open - they can extract a few quarters of profit from their products and services but that's it; the Chinese will then expect to do it themselves and keep all the profits to themselves. To most its not a good deal. To US companies, that are driven by quarterly targets then it is very much a case of sacrificing the future for the present. And if they stay out of China then the odds…

Reminds me of Goolgle and Facebook comes to my country takes all the ad revenue and the country gets nothing.

They get Google and Facebook.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#125

Post by AsyncAwait » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 5:42 PM UTC

aurailious wrote: post #19

reaperducer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK This is the sort of argument that an eight-year-old makes to his mother, and the mother responds, "If Jimmy jumped off a bridge, would you?" I don't know if you're an American or not, but there's an very common expression: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Isn't this "whataboutism"? You shut down a conversation by trying to deflect about how others have also done something? Like you said, two wrongs don't make a right. Just by pointing out this has happened elsewhere doesn't make the conversation about China doing it any less important or relevant. Why shut down this conversation?

"whataboutism" is a term employed by hypocrites who don't have a real counter-argument.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#126

Post by zeroname » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 5:44 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #107

zeroname wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...unfavorable trade agreement wich allowed for assymetrical tariffs, etc. Assymmetrical tariffs are more favorable than symmetrical tariffs, something practically every economist agrees on. Also, why insist on exporting more valuable goods to China, when China remains perfectly content with green pieces of paper instead?

So unfathomably China is against an inverse assymetrical tariff regime which on paper would benefit US but economists would insist actually would counterintuitively benefit China.

It's economically beneficial, but not politically expedient.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#127

Post by bluGill » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 5:46 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #66

rndmize wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of giving up. I feel like this misses the point. I don't expect people to complain much about IP being stolen by competitors - that feels like an security/internal problem. The issue with China seems to be that they force partnerships with Chinese companies, resulting in wester…

Can't the companies just not do business in China if they don't like the contract? Other countries have similar laws, like it forces companies to hire local people or spend part of the money locally. If China can afford to not respect the IP laws then there is nothing what a company can do, eventually the secrets would be reversed engineered.

You can. However 1 billion potential customers are dangerous to ignore. It isn't just that they don't buy from you, it is that they buy from your competition - which can include a brand new company they start locally - which gives your competition enough cash to design their next version better than yours.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#128

Post by che_shirecat » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

landryraccoon wrote: post #119

alehul wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also essentially game theory; the first defectors (those entering the Chinese market) will seize most of the reward.

So now that US companies have entered China, can you name some examples of first entrants who have “seized the market”? I think your entire premise is dubious. The first mover advantage cannot be great because the Chinese government will never allow a foreign company to have a dominant position in an important domestic Chinese market. Without significant change since in government those first entrant companies are si…

Apple? They clocked almost $10B in revenue from China in Q3 2018, close to 20% of total revenue.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#129

Post by mistermann » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 6:05 PM UTC

zeroname wrote: post #89

natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

> It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in various parts of the world. If they cannot make this calculation, they should not be running a company. There's an externality here, it's not just that one company, but all of its competitors that are losing out on these IP "appropriations". Then, let's say you're one of the companies that are able to "sell out", if y…

Excellent point. And not only that, but "execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in various parts of the world" seems like a rather no-brainer question, but is actually incredibly complex. In this calculation, what variable(s) are being optimized for, and over what time frame? Transferring the majority of manufacturing overseas might be the best thing for everyone involved (which assumes we actually have the ability to accurately and honestly measure such a thing) in the short run, but maybe it isn't the best thing for everyone or even anyone in the medium to long term.

Answering such questions is very, very difficult, but rarely do I even see anyone asking such questions. "Free trade is shown to increase GDP of all participating countries", which is a fact as far as I can tell, seems to be the limit of how deeply we want to think about these things, and suggestions that the world just might be a bit more complex than that usually elicits passionate, seemingly non-negotiable disagreement.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#130

Post by morpheuskafka » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 6:10 PM UTC

I'm not one to agree with the right wing of US politics very often at all, but our country needs to sanction and tariff Chinese goods until US rightholders are reimbursed for their stolen technology AND the PRC greatly reforms its absymal human rights records.

People are literally living in a modern version of 1984, complete with re-education camps and stolen Western surveillance technology. No American can in good conscience send their technology to be stolen by a country that wants to imprison and torture entire states of its citizens.

If the PRC government merely didn't follow IP law, that would be a calculated risk. When the PRC steals our technology to power a global game of persecution, corruption, and espionage, it's morally wrong.