Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Oracle’s Java 11 trap

blog.joda.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 244 posts

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#181

Post by StreamBright »

repolfx wrote: post #171
StreamBright wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New JRE/JDK gets released -> somebody from our company goes and downloads the RPM after accepting the license -> she uploads the RPM into our internal repository -> somebody from another department changes the build scripts to use the new JRE/JDK -> few minutes later we are running the dev clusters with the new JRE/JDK. In this process the person who downloads the new RPM (aka me) has to be 100% sure that the new JDK…

Hmmm. At most you're mad because the bright yellow warning box that tells you specifically to re-read the license because it changed is not clear enough for you, even though apparently being sure about exactly that is your job. I'm not sure you can blame Oracle for this. They could I guess give you a tl;dr summary in the box. But, how long would it take you to study the new situation? A few minutes?

I am not mad. I am thankful. And yes I am a ignorant engineer who cares more about features than legal crap. The only thing I am 100% sure is that I am not alone.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#182

Post by AnimalMuppet »

JoshuaAshton wrote: post #24

Oracle seriously needs to be fought in court about this and their other actions. They're actively hostile to the whole tech community and their entire business model is based on trapping people into paying for things by not making their licenses clear or changing their licenses. I don't know why anyone would use any software made by Oracle these days, the alternatives and open implementations of their own systems ten…

> Oracle seriously needs to be fought in court about this and their other actions.

The problem is, to win in court (not just go to court), you need actual grounds. What would be the grounds for suing Oracle in court?

For hiding the terms of the license? They didn't; the new terms have been as plain as any terms are in software licenses.

For changing the terms of the license? But Oracle was never obligated to supply new software on the old terms (unless the old license or some other contract obligated them to, but I don't think that's the case).

For changing the license terms on Java 8? But they had no obligation to continue to supply Java 8 under the old terms. (If you have an old copy of Java 8, the old license continues to apply, unless the old license specifies that Oracle gets to change it. Even if the old license does say that, it's not grounds for a lawsuit.)

So, specifically, on what grounds could you realistically sue Oracle?

Note well: I'm not an apologist for Oracle's behavior. I just don't think there's actual grounds for a lawsuit here.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#183

Post by StreamBright »

misabon wrote: post #170
paulie_a wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA and I've been doing it for two decades, honestly copyrights and licenses are not important to me. I have taken a fuck all attitude without consequence and will continue to do so forever.

Haha the plethora of GPL violations that exist without consequence sort of illustrate your point quite well.

You think if Oracle's legal team is after your company you get a free get out of license violation card?

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#184

Post by [deleted] »

JoshuaAshton wrote: post #24

Oracle seriously needs to be fought in court about this and their other actions. They're actively hostile to the whole tech community and their entire business model is based on trapping people into paying for things by not making their licenses clear or changing their licenses. I don't know why anyone would use any software made by Oracle these days, the alternatives and open implementations of their own systems ten…

[deleted]

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#185

Post by misabon »

StreamBright wrote: post #183
misabon wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha the plethora of GPL violations that exist without consequence sort of illustrate your point quite well.

You think if Oracle's legal team is after your company you get a free get out of license violation card?

Haha, I’m not playing that game because I’m lawsuit averse but I’m not surprised people are successful at it. This JDK includes telemetry so it just got a lot more dangerous to play but otherwise I’d guess license violations are pervasive at small shops.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#186

Post by AnimalMuppet »

zelos wrote: post #115
bimbam wrote: post #80

I believe the article is mistaken. Their License says: >"Program(s)" refers to Oracle software provided by Oracle pursuant to this Agreement and any updates, error corrections, and/or Program Documentation provided by Oracle. Not programs you create using the JDK

I thought that too: this just affects companies running JVMs, not companies that ship Java software, right?

Well, if you ship Java software, it has to run on a JVM. You often ship the JVM you want with the software, or else help the customer get the JVM installed. If you install or help them install Oracle's JVM, you may still have a problem.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#187

Post by [deleted] »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #21
wheresvic1 wrote: post #16

I'm not sure Java is worth the effort at this point. If I'm going to have to keep updating every 6 months, I would rather use Go, which seems to have all that Java has to offer + the backing of a huge corporation.

> I would rather use Go, which seems to have all that Java has to offer Really ? What is the Go equivalent of J2EE ? Do Go appservers exist that offer all the features that something like Payara (Glassfish), JBoss or WebSphere does ?

[deleted]

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#188

Post by doodpants »

grogenaut wrote: post #164
doodpants wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a lawyer either, but the license says that the "Programs" (meaning the JDK) may only be used for these purposes. Once I write my application, it will be running on the JRE, not the JDK.

Iirc there is no jre in 11, just jdk, also Oracle is not dumb they likely have a clause covering your "loophole". Finally why would you develop on Oracle jdk and run on open. Seems like an easy way to get bugs.

Ah. I wasn't aware there was no separate JRE.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#189

Post by [deleted] »

eloisant wrote: post #55
bradleyjg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as OpenJDK remains open and maintained for a reasonable length of time , I don't mind. Right now it's looking good, but only thanks to Red Hat (et al.) and not Oracle.

So many companies have a vested interest in maintaining Java alive (Google, IBM, etc.) that I'm not too worried about maintenance of OpenJDK.

[deleted]

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#190

Post by AnimalMuppet »

sheeshkebab wrote: post #8

It’s unfortunate Java is turning into modern day COBOL.

I think it turned into modern day COBOL as soon as J2EE came out.

And I wonder if it's inevitable. I wonder whether any language that successfully plays in that space will necessarily suffer the same fate.

Post reply on HN