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'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

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Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#71

Post by hobofan »

ilitirit wrote: post #24
mrob wrote: post #9

>When Kosmic says he's tied with the TAS run at 4-1, that means his inputs are matched up exactly with the program's and he can't physically do any better. It means he can't physically get a better time, but it does not mean his inputs are matched up exactly with the TAS. SMB1 level transitions are based around the "frame rule", which means you don't advance to the next level until the number of elapsed frames from t…

> It means he can't physically get a better time ... using the same techniques the TAS does . It's possible (although unlikely) that a new glitch/exploit could be discovered that allows for faster times.

A new glitch has been discovered the same day as the new record run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcVG8IDstuA

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#72

Post by kibwen »

berbec wrote: post #70
songshu wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a glitch is severe enough it will result in a new category of competition being created. A glitch that saves a second here or there would likely be accepted in the main category. Frequently speedrun games also have categories for how much has been completed in the run, like Any% meaning you just got the end credits up, or 100% meaning you collected all the items on the way or whatever

A notable example of this is Mario 64, where the lowest stars possible category has been renamed multiple times as ways of defeating bowser with fewer and fewer stars are discovered. I believe we are at 0.

And now that the star count is at zero (which humans have pulled off in runs), there is a distinction between "two-key zero-star" and "one-key zero-star", of which the latter is likely only possible in TAS. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5j6l9ULxmI

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#73

Post by kibwen »

jamespo wrote: post #53
beaconstudios wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tool Assisted Speedrun. It means you perform input to the game programmatically meaning you can set the input perfectly on a per-frame basis.

what is the point of that

If normal speedruns are like playing speed chess, tool-assisted speedruns are like finding the theoretically-optimal solutions to chess problems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_problem). Both of them require intense devotion to the game, though the first emphasizes physical ability and execution while the second emphasizes exhaustive thinking.

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#74

Post by ilitirit »

make3 wrote: post #41
ilitirit wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It means he can't physically get a better time ... using the same techniques the TAS does . It's possible (although unlikely) that a new glitch/exploit could be discovered that allows for faster times.

but then wouldn't TAS also be able to use it?

Yes, but this is referring to a specific TAS (the current fastest* known one), not a possible TAS.

http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html

[*] It's also worth noting that there are 2 categories for TAS timing: Humanly possible vs TAS-only. The former meaning that it's possible in theory for a human to achieve under "normal" conditions, the latter implying the opposite e.g. using left + right inputs at the same time which is not possible on a normal NES pad. The TAS in question was the current theoretical limit for humans.

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#75

Post by kibwen »

kchoudhu wrote: post #46
pattle wrote: post #11

If anyone is interested in speed runs I really recommend this YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtUbO6rBht0daVIOGML3c8w Thy're a series of videos on how world records have been lowered over time on various games. It's fascinating watching particularity the one on Super Mario 64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ePi38LnrA&t=16s

Did you ever see this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpk2tdsPh0A This guy literally has a PhD in SM64. It's insanely complicated, and surprisingly lucid.

This video is legendary. It's like sitting in on a university course on the technical details of the physics and programming in Mario 64.

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#76

Post by city41 »

pattle wrote: post #11

If anyone is interested in speed runs I really recommend this YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtUbO6rBht0daVIOGML3c8w Thy're a series of videos on how world records have been lowered over time on various games. It's fascinating watching particularity the one on Super Mario 64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ePi38LnrA&t=16s

Since we’re talking about Super Mario Bros, his video on level 4-2 is really interesting: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i1AHCaokqhg

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#77

Post by ATsch »

kchoudhu wrote: post #43
ilitirit wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It means he can't physically get a better time ... using the same techniques the TAS does . It's possible (although unlikely) that a new glitch/exploit could be discovered that allows for faster times.

I thought glitches were not allowed?

It depends on the game and category. Category rules are established by the community and the top priority is runs being fun to watch and play. Usually, any glitches are fair game. However, if any game-breaking glitches are found, the category will usually be split into one that allows and one that disallows the glitch. For example, Portal speedruns were split into "out of bounds" and "inbounds" categories once glitches were discovered that allowed you to beat the game mostly without interacting with the actual game at all.

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#78

Post by songshu »

trey-jones wrote: post #66
songshu wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love RWhiteGoose and the GoldenEye speedrun community generally. There's a core group of 50 or so people who've spent literally man-decades optimizing that game. If you haven't seen his "speedlore" series on YouTube I recommend it, he goes through the history of optimizations of a particular level. There are many parallels with the experience of optimizing software systems and the cycle of breakthrough and consolid…

I am not a speedrunner and I don't really follow any speedrunning community, but this takes me back to 1998 doing the Facility in time for the Invincibility cheat. If I still remember it 20 years later, I must have done it a few times.

Yes Goldeneye made amateur speedrunners of most people who played, as you had to get times to get cheats. You'd be amazed to see the fastest runs on Facility now. One particularly amazing thing is that the time for the invincibility cheat is now possible not only on 00 Agent mode (where in fact it's considered easy), but on so-called "Dark LTK" mode, where one injury kills Bond and all enemies have max stats.

Re: 'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

#79

Post by danso »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #52
daxterspeed wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the top left of the video feed there's supposed to be an active input display (showing what buttons are being pressed on the controller). At this point in the video he fixes the input display, causing the capture of the timer to stagger a little bit. As you'll notice by the end of the video the timer doesn't actually display 4:55.913, even though that's his record time - this is because the entire run has been re-…

How did he know, live, that he'd beaten the time?

I had wondered about this too and asked about it in r/speedruns [0] I originally assumed that speedrunners used some kind of special software/hardware that provide the watch counters displayed during their streams, but apparently, the displayed timer is controlled manually, via something like a foot pedal, and is not meant to be the official time (which is verified later through analysis)

But for a game like SMB, in which there is a hardcoded "window" (the 21-frame rule), it seems like it's fairly easy for a speedrunner to know if they've performed optimally when they finish each level.

[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/9iturn/super_mario_b...

Helpful comment:

> Additionally for Super Mario Bros. there is a thing called the frame rule that basically means that you can only beat a level (except the last level) on certain frames. If you beat the level before the frame rule then the game waits until the next frame rule before starting the next level. It's something like every 20 frames, I'm not exactly sure. So for most of the levels you only really need to know which frame rule you hit, which is fairly easy even with manual timing. The end of the last level needs to be measured precisely though.

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