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Oracle’s Java 11 trap

blog.joda.org

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Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#91

Post by lngnmn1 »

StreamBright wrote: post #81
wheresvic1 wrote: post #16

I'm not sure Java is worth the effort at this point. If I'm going to have to keep updating every 6 months, I would rather use Go, which seems to have all that Java has to offer + the backing of a huge corporation.

Right, what is the equivalent of the following in Go? import org.apache.hadoop.*; import org.rapidoid.net.Server; In case you are wondering people not only using languages for language features but also for the quality/quantity of libraries available in those languages. This is why is very hard to bootstrap a new language. Java has a ton of great libraries that are essential to big data and high performance backend s…

I am running around with the startup idea of rewriting some bloated crap like Hadoop in go for a few years now. Eventually someone will do it.

Even Spark and/or Kafka.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#92

Post by lngnmn1 »

koolba wrote: post #38
wheresvic1 wrote: post #16

I'm not sure Java is worth the effort at this point. If I'm going to have to keep updating every 6 months, I would rather use Go, which seems to have all that Java has to offer + the backing of a huge corporation.

How is that any different than updating a Go app? If a security issue arises in an older version of Go, it doesn’t magically fix in your app until you recompile it. Java also has a multi decade history of remaining backwards compatible across major version upgrades. Barring known exceptions for things explicitly being removed, I don’t see that changing.

Having an statically linked a.out which depends only on ABI is such a bliss.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#93

Post by icedchai »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #54
JoshuaAshton wrote: post #24

Oracle seriously needs to be fought in court about this and their other actions. They're actively hostile to the whole tech community and their entire business model is based on trapping people into paying for things by not making their licenses clear or changing their licenses. I don't know why anyone would use any software made by Oracle these days, the alternatives and open implementations of their own systems ten…

> by not making their licenses clear How is that? The license is pretty clear, as stated in the article: > You may not: use the Programs for any data processing or any commercial, production, or internal business purposes other than developing, testing, prototyping, and demonstrating your Application; If you cannot understand that language you should not download or use the JDK.

"Testing" is pretty vague. I'm testing in production.

(Actually, I'm sticking with JDK 8 for now.)

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#94

Post by holtalanm »

dudul wrote: post #29
wheresvic1 wrote: post #16

I'm not sure Java is worth the effort at this point. If I'm going to have to keep updating every 6 months, I would rather use Go, which seems to have all that Java has to offer + the backing of a huge corporation.

You seem to confuse the language Java and the JVM. Updating the JVM (which you are not forced to do) does not mean that you need to update your code base. That's actually Java's main strength (and weakness), it is compatible all the way to version 1.0

go ahead and try building a sufficiently large project written in java 6 on the java 9 jdk and tell me how backward compatible it is. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#95

Post by unmole »

JoshuaAshton wrote: post #89
paradite wrote: post #78

Is this actually a trap? The "trap" page has a huge warning section that clearly tells you license has substantially changed and how to get open JDK, and what license it has. > With JDK 11 Oracle has updated the license terms on which we offer the Oracle JDK. The new Oracle Technology Network License Agreement for Oracle Java SE is substantially different from the licenses under which previous versions of the JDK wer…

The majority of people don't download the JDK via this method (eg. a package manager) and will miss that big box about a license change. Edit: Plus even if they aren't you still have the general mindset of "next next install close" where people are so normalized to getting something like that, to test or deploy it would be very easy to miss - given the license of the previous versions it would be an expectation that…

Anyone installing JDK via a package manager would be installing the GPL version.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#96

Post by ofrzeta »

StreamBright wrote: post #81
wheresvic1 wrote: post #16

I'm not sure Java is worth the effort at this point. If I'm going to have to keep updating every 6 months, I would rather use Go, which seems to have all that Java has to offer + the backing of a huge corporation.

Right, what is the equivalent of the following in Go? import org.apache.hadoop.*; import org.rapidoid.net.Server; In case you are wondering people not only using languages for language features but also for the quality/quantity of libraries available in those languages. This is why is very hard to bootstrap a new language. Java has a ton of great libraries that are essential to big data and high performance backend s…

  import (
  	"net/http"
  	"github.com/labstack/echo"
  )
For Hadoop I guess it depends on what you want to do. For instance there are modules for HDFS but also several module by Hortonworks: https://de.hortonworks.com/blog/go-hadoop-err-hadoop-and-go/

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#97

Post by StreamBright »

unmole wrote: post #95
JoshuaAshton wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of people don't download the JDK via this method (eg. a package manager) and will miss that big box about a license change. Edit: Plus even if they aren't you still have the general mindset of "next next install close" where people are so normalized to getting something like that, to test or deploy it would be very easy to miss - given the license of the previous versions it would be an expectation that…

Anyone installing JDK via a package manager would be installing the GPL version.

Absolutely not. We are installing via a package manager the Oracle issued RPM for example. I would have missed the licensing story if Joda was not writing an article about it.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#98

Post by srgseg »

I notice that the OpenJDK build is only available as a .tar.gz and not as .rpm

This means that to upgrade from Oracle JDK10 -> Open JDK11, you'll have to write a script yourself to modify the symlinks e.g. to redirect the existing "/etc/alternatives/java -> /usr/java/jdk-10.0.x/bin/java" to the new installation. There are 46 of these symlinks that need changing (for javac, jstack, etc etc).

I hope that's the only change that is required and that I'm not missing something. Anyone know if there is anything else necessary?

Edit: here is the script I just wrote to print out the commands required to change the symlinks:

  #!/bin/bash

  existingJdkBinPath=$(dirname `readlink /etc/alternatives/java`)
  newJdkPath="/opt/jdk-11"

  find /etc/alternatives -type l | while read link; do
    target=$(readlink "$link")
    targetPath=$(dirname $target)
    targetFile=$(basename $target)

    if [[ $targetPath = $existingJdkBinPath ]]; then
      newTarget="$newJdkPath/bin/$targetFile"
      echo ln -snf "$newTarget" "$link"
    fi
  done

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#99

Post by dnomad »

jodastephen wrote: post #87
paradite wrote: post #78

Is this actually a trap? The "trap" page has a huge warning section that clearly tells you license has substantially changed and how to get open JDK, and what license it has. > With JDK 11 Oracle has updated the license terms on which we offer the Oracle JDK. The new Oracle Technology Network License Agreement for Oracle Java SE is substantially different from the licenses under which previous versions of the JDK wer…

Not everybody reads warnings. Many will go to that page and just go straight to the download. In addition, the warning doesn't say "not for commercial use" - you have to click through and read a long legalese to find it. Oracle could still choose to make it clearer...

There's no "long legalese."

The new license (https://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license...) is very clear. It states in plain English: "Further, You may not: use the Programs for any data processing or any commercial, production, or internal business purposes other than developing, testing, prototyping, and demonstrating your Application;".

How is that not clear?

This entire article is just pure FUD. Oracle has stated over and over and over how the new licensing model works. It's clear to anybody who spends a couple of minutes reading the documentation.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#100

Post by pjmlp »

danpalmer wrote: post #88
JoshuaAshton wrote: post #24

Oracle seriously needs to be fought in court about this and their other actions. They're actively hostile to the whole tech community and their entire business model is based on trapping people into paying for things by not making their licenses clear or changing their licenses. I don't know why anyone would use any software made by Oracle these days, the alternatives and open implementations of their own systems ten…

> Oracle seriously needs to be fought in court about this and their other actions. The problem is that very few companies have the desire or resources to do this. The community certainly doesn't have the resources. We'd need tens of millions of dollars of legal resources to fight their terrible behaviour.

As if Sun made everything available for free before.

Or any other major player in the Java space like IBM.

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