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Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

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Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#91

Post by thaumasiotes »

MrLeap wrote: post #80
2trill2spill wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I make almost twice the average salary of a Software Engineer in Paris here in Minneapolis. I could move to the bay area and make an extra $20-$30K but my rent and cost of living would sky rocket. I pay about $680 a month for rent in an excellent neighborhood of Minneapolis. Getting rent that cheap in the bay area would be impossible. Plus my friends working in Chicago have salaries equivalent to the bay area bu…

Shh don't tell them. ;) In Kansas City I rent a _house_ with a large back yard within walking distance from a lot of neat things. I've built a metal working shop in my basement and a forge out back. My rent is 700$ a month. Work the first day of the month pays that if I take a long lunch. Every SF salary range I see is significantly below what I made last year. I'm not even taking cost of living into consideration he…

> I've built a metal working shop in my basement and a forge out back. My rent is 700$ a month.

Making major capital investments in the property is actually something I would consider a reason to purchase rather than renting. Can you say more about your thought process there?

> If you're in tech move west, definitely.

...west? Did you mean east?

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#92

Post by jrs95 »

xvilka wrote: post #90

Apart from higher salaries in California Paris is way better for the quality of living. They have public transportation, good food and so far one of the emerging "mega/gigacities" of the future. They even have a "Grand Paris" [1] project which aims to integrate suburbs and surrounding cities in one huge melted conurbation. So opening a business here may be a good strategy in the long term. [1] http://www.grand-paris.…

From what I can tell the startup ecosystem is even weaker there than in areas like the Midwest in the U.S., which even after expenses related to transportation and healthcare makes a lot more economic sense in my opinion. Cost of living is very low but the salaries are much higher. Regardless of infrastructure, France and Europe in general needs higher salaries to be competitive. Sure some of the quality of living things are nice but ultimately I'm going to choose a job primarily for work I enjoy and how much money I'll have left over expenses.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#93

Post by jogjayr »

lazyjones wrote: post #41
axtn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are a benefit... if you pay people above market! That allows you to attract top talent that otherwise would be locked in at Google etc. The whole point of low salaries, for smart companies, is to be the one increasing them! Obviously that makes it a temporary advantage, as salaries start to increase... But all great advantages are temporary. The people you are talking to, who like low salaries because they want…

Good luck getting the top talent that has moved to the US, UK or Switzerland years ago.

There's always people that want to move back home to be closer to family or their culture but are put off by the lower salaries.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#94

Post by 2trill2spill »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #89
2trill2spill wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume that? I spent almost a month camping this year and I'm planning a 2 week snowboarding trip in the Rockies. As well as a climbing slash canoeing trip in the boundary waters area in the spring.

Because vacation packages in the US are 10-20 days and more like 42 days in France ?

And yet me an American is on track for 40 days of paid vacation time this year, also a coworker of mine just got back from 13 weeks paid paternity leave.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#95

Post by axtn »

user5994461 wrote: post #70
lazyjones wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much is the correct amount for settlement?

An employee can be laid off if he agrees to it but that's not like firing because it needs an agreement. I am not sure if the OP is talking about that. It's possible to fire people without justification and the company will be brought to court. There is a new law from Macron that caps the damages the employee can get to pretty much nothing when he only has a few years of tenure or less. You could provision for a few…

I can confirm that you can fire people in France at a reasonable cost if you know what you’re doing and are focused on paying good money for great people. If you’re looking to build a large-scale sweatshop of low-skill workers with low pay and high turnover... then sure, France is not the place to do that. But if you’re a typical tech company not afraid to pay above market for top talent... cost of severance will not be an issue.

(I’ve hired and run large engineering offices in France and in the US).

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#96

Post by beerlord »

EZ-E wrote: post #8

My opinion : the low salaries of engineers, high taxes and bureaucracy hold back the startup scene. Also, the mentality toward technical positions, in France if you didn't go from engineer to manager by 35 year old people wonder what's wrong with you. https://imgur.com/a/MOlau0V

Its all about money and taxes.

Let's start with a labour budget of $300,000 to hire a lead programmer or other critical person.

France: 41.35% of the gross salary is paid to the Government in payroll taxes, leaving $175,938 paid as income to the employee.

After income taxes, $90,167 is left for the employee to spend.

That employee then wants to spend their entire salary on flat-screen TVs? They have an effective spending power of $75,139 after 20% VAT.

Government taxes account for about 75% of this labour budget! As you can imagine, this creates a huge incentive for tax evasion.

The US, for the same original budget:

4.09% is paid as payroll taxes, leaving $287,717 as income.

After (Californian) income taxes, $178,773 is left for the employee to spend. 7.25% sales tax then gives $166,300 finally.

So, an extra $91,161 ends up with the American worker (much more if they are married to a zero-income spouse and move out of California). Sure, you have to pay things like property taxes, 401K contributions, health insurance in the US - but would those account for $91,161?

Europe needs to completely scrap its payroll taxes and replace them with income taxes. Employees should not have to pay anything merely for hiring an employee, as it places a disincentive on using labour. On a global level, it also makes France uncompetitive - American companies hiring globally will be much more attractive.

Sources: http://www.uhy.com/employers-now-pay-average-employment-cost... https://www.francetaxcalculator.com/?salary=149508

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#97

Post by relyio »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #89
2trill2spill wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume that? I spent almost a month camping this year and I'm planning a 2 week snowboarding trip in the Rockies. As well as a climbing slash canoeing trip in the boundary waters area in the spring.

Because vacation packages in the US are 10-20 days and more like 42 days in France ?

What, no.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#98

Post by paulddraper »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #91
MrLeap wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shh don't tell them. ;) In Kansas City I rent a _house_ with a large back yard within walking distance from a lot of neat things. I've built a metal working shop in my basement and a forge out back. My rent is 700$ a month. Work the first day of the month pays that if I take a long lunch. Every SF salary range I see is significantly below what I made last year. I'm not even taking cost of living into consideration he…

> I've built a metal working shop in my basement and a forge out back. My rent is 700$ a month. Making major capital investments in the property is actually something I would consider a reason to purchase rather than renting. Can you say more about your thought process there? > If you're in tech move west, definitely. ...west? Did you mean east?

Probably depends where you start.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#99

Post by beerlord »

beerlord wrote: post #96
EZ-E wrote: post #8

My opinion : the low salaries of engineers, high taxes and bureaucracy hold back the startup scene. Also, the mentality toward technical positions, in France if you didn't go from engineer to manager by 35 year old people wonder what's wrong with you. https://imgur.com/a/MOlau0V

Its all about money and taxes. Let's start with a labour budget of $300,000 to hire a lead programmer or other critical person. France: 41.35% of the gross salary is paid to the Government in payroll taxes, leaving $175,938 paid as income to the employee. After income taxes, $90,167 is left for the employee to spend. That employee then wants to spend their entire salary on flat-screen TVs? They have an effective spen…

Why the downvotes? Are my calculations or sources inaccurate?

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#100

Post by thaumasiotes »

paulddraper wrote: post #98
thaumasiotes wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've built a metal working shop in my basement and a forge out back. My rent is 700$ a month. Making major capital investments in the property is actually something I would consider a reason to purchase rather than renting. Can you say more about your thought process there? > If you're in tech move west, definitely. ...west? Did you mean east?

Probably depends where you start.

But the comment contrasts Kansas City (favorably) with San Francisco.
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