Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France • Hacker News Board

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#71

Post by user5994461 » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 10:33 PM UTC

eloisant wrote: post #27

EZ-E wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of talented people end up working in another country, especially top talent. Would you rather have a glass ceiling at 40k or start at 100+k in SF? Not to mention, low salaries garantees that not much international talent will relocate in France

France is full of "service" jobs, those are crap and lower the average. Just ignore those and look at the jobs that matter, if you're the kind of developer who would have the skills to relocate to SF. If you're senior, in France, you can get a fairly good salary as a developer. There is definitely no glass ceiling at 40k; you can get more than 50k easily, and above 70k if you have can find the right company with a go…

Your numbers are about right for Paris.

Note that if you cross the sea to the UK, London. The salary is double and it's in British pound.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#72

Post by TomVDB » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 10:33 PM UTC

2trill2spill wrote: post #66

mhjas wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example it is pretty common in the Nordic countries to have a vacation home where you spend summers and holidays with friends and family. And between saved parental leave, standardized vacation periods and public holidays there is time available to do so. There are certainly people who do have that in the US, but once you or your family relocates it gets a lot more tricky. In general I just think it is a lot easi…

> For example it is pretty common in the Nordic countries to have a vacation home where you spend summers and holidays with friends and family. And between saved parental leave, standardized vacation periods and public holidays there is time available to do so. There are certainly people who do have that in the US, but once you or your family relocates it gets a lot more tricky. That's also common in the United State…

I don't think being able to a own vacation home in the Midwest is relevant in this context: the increase in income going from France to the Midwest is almost certainly going to be much lower than the increase going from France to the Bay Area, while the loss of social benefits would still be the same (or worse.)

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#73

Post by user5994461 » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 10:44 PM UTC

Rjevski wrote: post #56

I am French, moved to the UK a few years ago. There are many cultural issues that will prevent France from ever becoming a startup nation. One of them is the fact that there's this idea floating around where you have to have higher education (Bac +5, aka 5 years of uni) to do anything even remotely related to IT, as if it was some kind of rocket science (where a degree would actually help). In fact, the first thing m…

>>> I'm not sure if the ones that are left (those with the required education) are any better considering they never had the chance to work on a real project.

Every single French graduate has experience on real world projects. Graduation requires to have done at least 2 half year internships.

In my opinion, compared to UK graduates for example, French are much stronger. Longer studies, more theoretical and more practical experience.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#74

Post by 2trill2spill » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 10:56 PM UTC

TomVDB wrote: post #72

2trill2spill wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example it is pretty common in the Nordic countries to have a vacation home where you spend summers and holidays with friends and family. And between saved parental leave, standardized vacation periods and public holidays there is time available to do so. There are certainly people who do have that in the US, but once you or your family relocates it gets a lot more tricky. That's also common in the United State…

I don't think being able to a own vacation home in the Midwest is relevant in this context: the increase in income going from France to the Midwest is almost certainly going to be much lower than the increase going from France to the Bay Area, while the loss of social benefits would still be the same (or worse.)

Why? I make almost twice the average salary of a Software Engineer in Paris here in Minneapolis. I could move to the bay area and make an extra $20-$30K but my rent and cost of living would sky rocket. I pay about $680 a month for rent in an excellent neighborhood of Minneapolis. Getting rent that cheap in the bay area would be impossible. Plus my friends working in Chicago have salaries equivalent to the bay area but their cost of living is almost half of the bay. Even though I make less in the Upper Midwest, the cost of living is so low that I can save more than if I lived in the bay.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#75

Post by kcorbitt » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 11:25 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #49

relyio wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've lived in Paris, Berlin, NYC and California. I'll never understand how European founders can keep saying that 40k euro salaries for engineers is a benefit while they watch so many great engineers leave to American companies. This. I have tasted the fruit and I'm never going back. The social benefits feel largely like gimmicks compared to the standard of living + social recognition you get working as an engineer…

> The social benefits feel largely like gimmicks Get back to us the first time you have a medical emergency putting you on the hook for 5 or 6 figures ( after insurance); at least you're lucky enough to be able to flee the jurisdiction back to a home country.

> Get back to us the first time you have a medical emergency putting you on the hook for 5 or 6 figures (after insurance)

Is that a thing? Obviously there are lots of people in the USA who don't have any good health insurance options. But as an engineer in San Francisco all the companies I've worked at or interviewed with have had gold-plated health insurance plans with maximum out-of-pocket expenses in the low 4 figures. And of course, most people won't hit those maximums most years, that's just an upper bound.

This is of course limited to my personal experience, but my impression is that good health insurance is table stakes for highly-paid engineering roles.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#76

Post by 1stcity3rdcoast » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 11:30 PM UTC

godzillabrennus wrote: post #22

Fede_V wrote: post #21

I lived in Paris for a year, and I'm now working for a big tech company in the US. I can't speak from the VC side of the table, but France has incredibly technically strong graduates (people with technical degrees from the top universities there are all very good) and young people have a very global outlook. Further, there are more and more programs that provide start up funding/locations/tax breaks. What is missing…

Sounds a lot like Chicago 10 years ago. It takes a generation of entrepreneurs to start and have a success or two despite the conditions. Then unless they pull a lightbank they will reinvest in the next generation of entrepreneurs.

Can you expand on pulling a Lightbank? Full disclosure, I’ve worked for two Lightbank-funded companies in Chicago but am just curious what you meant there.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#77

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 11:34 PM UTC

kcorbitt wrote: post #75

toomuchtodo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The social benefits feel largely like gimmicks Get back to us the first time you have a medical emergency putting you on the hook for 5 or 6 figures ( after insurance); at least you're lucky enough to be able to flee the jurisdiction back to a home country.

> Get back to us the first time you have a medical emergency putting you on the hook for 5 or 6 figures (after insurance) Is that a thing? Obviously there are lots of people in the USA who don't have any good health insurance options. But as an engineer in San Francisco all the companies I've worked at or interviewed with have had gold-plated health insurance plans with maximum out-of-pocket expenses in the low 4 fig…

~1 month ago

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/08/27/6408918...

HN Thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17859897

> but my impression is that good health insurance is table stakes for highly-paid engineering roles.

Hit or miss. Definitely depends on the company.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#78

Post by kcorbitt » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 11:48 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #77

kcorbitt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Get back to us the first time you have a medical emergency putting you on the hook for 5 or 6 figures (after insurance) Is that a thing? Obviously there are lots of people in the USA who don't have any good health insurance options. But as an engineer in San Francisco all the companies I've worked at or interviewed with have had gold-plated health insurance plans with maximum out-of-pocket expenses in the low 4 fig…

~1 month ago https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/08/27/6408918... HN Thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17859897 > but my impression is that good health insurance is table stakes for highly-paid engineering roles. Hit or miss. Definitely depends on the company.

That's a very unfortunate story. As I mentioned, I recognize that many people in the US don't have any good healthcare options, which is something that we as a society ought to fix.

However, I don't think we can learn much about the health insurance typically provided to engineers in San Francisco from the poor insurance plan available to a teacher in Houston. Those jobs have very different compensation profiles.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#79

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 11:56 PM UTC

kcorbitt wrote: post #78

toomuchtodo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~1 month ago https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/08/27/6408918... HN Thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17859897 > but my impression is that good health insurance is table stakes for highly-paid engineering roles. Hit or miss. Definitely depends on the company.

That's a very unfortunate story. As I mentioned, I recognize that many people in the US don't have any good healthcare options, which is something that we as a society ought to fix. However, I don't think we can learn much about the health insurance typically provided to engineers in San Francisco from the poor insurance plan available to a teacher in Houston. Those jobs have very different compensation profiles.

The problem is you're not going to have a solid understanding of your engineering role plan until you're employed, and even then, even with "preapproval" from the insurer, it might turn out you don't have the coverage you think you do.

My firm is in financial services. Very nice plan. Even with my "nice plan", we've had the insurer renege on their coverage of services (thousands of dollars in services) after receiving approval and having it in writing prior to obtaining services. YMMV.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#80

Post by MrLeap » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 12:16 AM UTC

2trill2spill wrote: post #74

TomVDB wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think being able to a own vacation home in the Midwest is relevant in this context: the increase in income going from France to the Midwest is almost certainly going to be much lower than the increase going from France to the Bay Area, while the loss of social benefits would still be the same (or worse.)

Why? I make almost twice the average salary of a Software Engineer in Paris here in Minneapolis. I could move to the bay area and make an extra $20-$30K but my rent and cost of living would sky rocket. I pay about $680 a month for rent in an excellent neighborhood of Minneapolis. Getting rent that cheap in the bay area would be impossible. Plus my friends working in Chicago have salaries equivalent to the bay area bu…

Shh don't tell them. ;) In Kansas City I rent a _house_ with a large back yard within walking distance from a lot of neat things. I've built a metal working shop in my basement and a forge out back. My rent is 700$ a month. Work the first day of the month pays that if I take a long lunch.

Every SF salary range I see is significantly below what I made last year. I'm not even taking cost of living into consideration here. Just absolute terms. I interviewed at Amazon a few years ago when they were doing some game design stuff and didn't make the cut. I learned that I'm not ambitious enough to make less.

Because midwest tech, I have no debt. In fact, I can crunch for a month, take the money and go buy a few acres to shoot my .50 caliber anti material rifle. Few SF residents will know how expensive it is to buy match 750 grain ammo, or know the pain and suffering of putting a clean hole through an engine block you tore out of a mercury tracer from 1000m away on a tuesday at 11am. It's terrible.

The central limit theorem corroborates the fact that the 500,000 people in KC basically don't exist and it's just one big cornfield. The 800,000 people in San Francisco are burdened with the knowledge that everything east of them til' the coast is flyover country. I feel for them.

If you're in tech move west, definitely.