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If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

theguardian.com

101–110 of 114 posts

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#101
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also healthy to cut back on (red) meat consumption. NHS recommends 70g/day. One proper steak means no meat for the rest of the week. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/meat-nutrition/#how-mu...

Why would you think that is true? Here in the USA we eat less red meat than we did 45 years ago, and are way less healthy. NHS and the USDA make all kinds of boneheaded dietary prescriptions that are terrible (eat lots of grains, eat trans fats, avoid eggs, avoid butter). Since the 1970s, at least: * Americans eat less red meat and more white meat than they used to in the 70's. * Americans get fewer calories total fr…

Consumption of chicken and cheese has gone through the roof. Consumption of sweeteners and simple carbs has gone done. Do the math.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#102
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but this article is about grazing livestock, not soya/corn fed livestock.

Then why compare to veganism? The issue then is about sustainable production.

Not sure if you've read the article. The point he's making is that sustainable farming doesn't share all of the downsides of veganism, soil degradation for instance.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#103
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to note is that being vegan is very difficult and most people aren't going to be vegan. One thing everyone can do is to cut their meat intake. People have meat for almost every meal and it's pretty simple to cut back and you still get some health and environmental benefits.

Being vegan is a lot easier than you might think, but you're right that reducing your meat intake and trying to buy more humanely raised meat also helps. What I recommend to my non-vegan friends is to just pick one day a week in which they consume no animal products and then expand from there.

It is hard, you either need to carefully plan your diet or you're risking ruining your health far more than usual. However, it's very easy to greatly reduce your meat intake - just looking around for vegan options lets you put a lot of variety into your daily diet and it turns out that it can be tasty even if you generally hate vegetables, like I do. Even though I sometimes still choose meat out of preference when eating out, I would never expect that I would be able to actively prefer vege and vegan options in so many cases until I tried :) Ended up in me always checking (and contributing to) OpenVegeMap when looking for someplace to eat in a new area.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#104
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many many many foods have eggs or dairy products in them that simply don’t need them. The bread for that pbj could very well have milk, eggs in it. Butter on toast is a dairy product. Eggs are a common ingredient in veggie burgers!

Dairy and small amounts of egg (usually added for it's chemical/material properties) in baked goods don't count as meat for discussions about food sustainability because they don't require raising animals for slaughter. A dairy cow can produce many gallons of milk and a chicken can lay many eggs over its lifetime. They're a drop in the bucket compared to the environmental impact of meat raised for direct consumption.…

Dairy production absolutely requires raising animals for slaughter. There is no beef industry without the dairy industry. Like mammals, cows produce milk as food source for their offspring - the dairy industry ensures that cows are always producing offspring. Those offspring don't get milk - it's sold to us. Those male offspring become veal and are slaughtered early. Those female offspring become more dairy cows. Those dairy cows that can no longer produce milk are slaughtered for meat and myriad other uses.

That's a huge reason why veganism is growing far faster than vegetarianism. People are realizing the systemic connection between the industries and understanding that all animal products must be eschewed.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being vegan is a lot easier than you might think, but you're right that reducing your meat intake and trying to buy more humanely raised meat also helps. What I recommend to my non-vegan friends is to just pick one day a week in which they consume no animal products and then expand from there.

Choosing one day a week to be completely miserable sounds like a much worse path to veganism than cutting back one thing at a time.

As a vegetable hater that was a misconception that I used to have. Turned out that in most cases I even prefer vegan meat substitutes to real meat now for their taste and texture (they can be pretty similar, but the slight differences IMO work against meat).

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#106
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why compare to veganism? The issue then is about sustainable production.

Not sure if you've read the article. The point he's making is that sustainable farming doesn't share all of the downsides of veganism, soil degradation for instance.

Sustainable Veganism is better than sustainable meat?

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that vegans have no problem shifting their consumption of food to a part of the biota that they feel doesn’t have the capacity to understand what is happening to them or to feel or respond to the pain of the process of being harvested for our food. I often wonder how the plant feels when the sharp cow hoof shears a leaf or stalk as it grazes. Does it mourn the loss of the immature seed heads that fall to the…

Believe me, I know the plant cognition literature quite well ([0],[1] or [2],[3] for the technical literature) which is why I would consume lab grown meat over free growing plants if it ever came to a head. However, your mock poetry about plants yearning for freedom is close to being an ad-hominem attack. Are you saying you don't eat plants because you feel their pain? My guess is probably not. Instead, you are tryin…

>Are you saying you don't eat plants because you feel their pain? My guess is probably not.

You are correct. I am, like we all have evolved to be, omnivorous. I supped on delicious pig parts with potatoes and brussels sprouts last night. The seasonings I used included crushed plant seeds, pressed seed oils, and real butter from someone's cow.

Vegans, like those people who choose to eat meat-heavy diets are making a conscious choice to ignore a specific option from all the available food sources.

Your body has evolved to be able to handle all of it, some of it may be better for your health over the long run but that doesn't mean that you can't eat it. It means that you have chosen not to eat it for philosophical reasons.

I'm not in your head so I don't know why you have chosen to be vegan except that you say that you don't want to cause pain to that part of the biota that we understand has the capacity to experience pain. It appears to be an ethical question for you. Stick to your guns. Live your life.

I wrote the "mock poetry" as you describe it in a tongue-in-cheek way in order to have the reader see life from a different perspective, that of the plants that you would potentially be consuming. I have also followed the literature about plant growth, etc. for many years. I don't have a green thumb so I usually end up feeling sorry for the plants who unwittingly fall into my cart when I'm on my annual garden upgrade adventures. I do what I can to make their growing environment more growth friendly, ultimately so that I can eat the fruits of my, and their, labors.

After catching the NYT article that I linked I was grazing HN posts and found this one and at that point I knew that I had found the perfect article to challenge a vegan's belief system about the ethics of eating something that knew that it was being injured in the process and perhaps felt pain and sent itself into damage control as a result of the attack on its life.

I only needed to find a vegan poster who would make the argument that eating plants is more ethical than eating animals because animals feel it when we hurt them. You came along and my heart skipped with joy, or maybe I have an undiagnosed arrhythmia. I quickly began to type out in my word processor all the things you see gathered in that "mock poetry" part of my posted reply. My mind was flooded with bullshit so I flushed it into that post.

Poetry, like art, is subject to individual interpretation.

I intended to cause the reader, and you, to consider that plants may also be disinclined to accept our established usage of them as a food source. Perhaps they are in fact just resigned to their fates and immediately launch into damage control as soon as a credible threat appears.

If you took my post personally then maybe the lack of collagen in your diet has thinned your skin a bit too much. You should consider adding supplements to your diet to correct that deficiency. Of course the best sources of collagen are animal products. The choice is yours.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no ecologically sound way of getting vegetable calories out of the Montana native grasslands. The best way of feeding people using that land would be raising Bison; cattle are an acceptable second choice. But your basic point still stands. The Montana native grasslands can only support a few cattle per square mile, so it definitely does not work at scale.

There's an interesting UN report from a while back, Livestock's Long Shadow [1], that observes that, nowadays, it's not necessarily even ecologically sound to use the grasslands in the first place. A big feature of their findings are that large-scale grazing tends to prevent forests from forming in wetter climates, and contributes to desertification in more arid ones. Both of those consequences have huge implications…

I agree that just idling those Montana ranches is probably best. Huge tracts of land just to raise a few cattle. But then what?

Back to Bison? Bison are much more effective at preventing forests from forming than cattle are. So "natural", but from an ecosystem protection and climate change perspective probably not the best choice. "What's best for the environment" is often a large set of conflicting goals...

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#109
post #73
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also healthy to cut back on (red) meat consumption. NHS recommends 70g/day. One proper steak means no meat for the rest of the week. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/meat-nutrition/#how-mu...

I've been trying to keep my average under 90g/day since about 2010 and most weeks nowadays I average half that. However I wouldn't call 500g a proper steak, only time I've seen stakes at that size is as novalty items on menus of burger/grill joints, and even then very rarely.

Yeah, when we get steak for dinners, we wind up with 500-600g for a family of four. And that's 2-3 cuts.

Re: If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

#110

More humane and sustainable forms of animal agriculture would certainly be a step in the right direction from the horrors of the concentrated feeding operations that supply most of the world's meat supply right now. But those techniques were developed for a reason. There's no way to meet the current and rapidly growing demand for meat without completely setting aside the welfare of the animals and the environment. Th…

> well-planned vegan diet Love the weasel wording Translation It means B12 (Yeast has poor bioavailability) Zinc Iron D2 Pills (No such thing as D3 on plant based foods) and a ton of Carbohydrates from grains potatoes legumes rice fruits etc and people still wonder why the majority of Vegans return back to meat.

B12 must be supplemented, the rest is wrong. Not sure what's your point regarding carbs. Source: I do plant-based and perform blood tests for all the things you mentioned and more.
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